Mystery shrouds whereabouts of bodies of 54 insurgents said killed by US

AFP via Yahoo News ^ | 12/01/03

[TexKat]

SAMARRA, Iraq (AFP) - The US military said it believed 54 insurgents were killed in intense exchanges in the northern Iraqi town of Samarra the previous day but commanders admitted they had no bodies.

The only corpses at the city's hospital were those of ordinary civilians, including two elderly Iranian pilgrims and a child.

US Brigadier General Mark Kimmit told a Baghdad press conference that 54 militants had been gunned down, 22 wounded and one arrested.

But challenged about what had happened to the bodies, Kimmit said: "I would suspect that the enemy would have carried them away and brought them back to where their initial base was."

Asked about reports from senior police and hospital officials in the town of eight civilians killed and dozens more wounded, the US general insisted: "We have no such reports whether from medical authorities or police.

A few hours earlier, Colonel Fredrick Rudesheim, who heads the 3rd Combat Brigades that was involved in Sunday's bloody clashes, told reporters that his troops had killed 46 and captured another 11.

"Are you asking me to produce (them)?" he asked, when questioned by reporters about the absence of any militants' bodies at Samarra's single hospital or on the city's streets.

"This is a good question and I think perhaps if you can interview the Fedayeen (a disbanded militia of Saddam Hussein's ousted regime) or whoever attacked us, you might get a better answer."

Lieutenant Colonel Ryan Gonsalves, who commands the 166th Armored Battalion in Samarra, also said his troops were not in possession of the bodies.

The death toll, he said, "is based on the reports we got from the ground."

Lieutenant Joseph Marcee, who took part in Sunday's combat, said he saw several of the attackers lying dead on the ground.

"There was no time to pick up the bodies. We were receiving fire from other locations," he said.

Sergeant Nicholas Mullen, who fired rounds from an Abrams tank Sunday, offered yet another explanation for the army's inability to locate the corpses. "We don't stick around," he said.

The mystery, which borders on solving a mathematics equation, further deepened with Gonsalves' report.

According to him, a total of 60 militants, divided into two groups, attacked two convoys escorting new Iraqi currency to banks in the city.

Another four assailants in a BMW attacked a separate engineering convoy.

If the US troops killed 46 and captured 11 of them, only three of the survivors would have been left to pick up the corpses.

On Kimmit's figures the calculus becomes even hazier -- with 54 killed, 22 wounded and one captured, 13 militants remain unaccounted for, although both commanders did say the cash convoys also came under attack on their way in and out of the city.

As to how the troops came up with their casualty figures, Rudesheim said it was by counting their weapons.

"We don't indiscriminately engage people, only those who engage us with AK 47s and RPGs. That's how we determine the number of people we are engaging and, after talking with each soldier, we can tell just how many people are returning fire at us."

Residents in Samarra said they had not seen any of the militants' bodies, 46 or 54.

The head of the local hospital, Abed Tawfiq, reported eight dead civilians but no insurgents.

Ambulance driver Abdelmoneim Mohammed said he had not ferried any combattants wounded or killed and wearing the black Fedayeen outfit which US soldiers said their assailants wore.

"If I had seen bodies, I would have picked them up. It's not like the Americans would have done it.

"If the death toll had reached that announced by the Americans, the atmosphere in Samarra would be quite different."

Salaheddin Mawlud, a colonel in the former Iraqi army, who now heads Samarra city council's complaints office, said the American toll does not work.

"If there had been so many dead, we would have seen people rushing to the hospital, the police station or here, and it just didn't happen."

Abdelrizek Jadwa, who owns a grocery 50 meters (yards) from the scene of one of the attacks, said he did not have the shadow of a doubt.

"After the firing, I went out of my shop. There were no wounded, no killed on the streets. Where could they have disappeared?"

[mickie]

Here goes again.

"Seems apparent that civilians colluded with the terrorists.
The collusion included prepping the location and setting the stage for the media afterward.
Some civilians hurt maybe are just fedayeen out of uniform.
If the civilians had tipped off our guys, instead of aiding the enemy, they'd be safe and sound and the bad guys would be dead".

[TexKat]

Soldiers of the U.S Army's 4th Infantry Division (Task Force Ironhorse) secure an area during a night raid on the outskirts of town of Baquba in central Iraq, December 2, 2003. U.S. troops raided several houses looking for supporters of former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein who, they believe, are trying to reorganize the Baath party and are involved in coordinated attack on coalition forces. REUTERS/Shamil Zhumatov

A soldier of the U.S Army's 4th Infantry Division (Task Force Ironhorse) passes a cage with birds in a searched house on the outskirts of town of Baquba in central Iraq, December 2, 2003. U.S. troops raided several houses looking for supporters of former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein who, they believe, are trying to reorganize the Baath party and involved in coordinated attack on coalition forces. REUTERS/Shamil Zhumatov

[cookcounty]

"Photographers" are both Muslim. If life is so dangerous for non-muslim "reporters," why is it SO SAFE for muslim "reporters?"

Note: as a protest against Reuters et al., I'm putting "reporters" in quotations for as long as they are putting "terrorists" in quotations.

[BlackVeil]

Another strange aspect of this story is that initially the official spokesman said that they had captured 11 guerillas. Now, they admit that they only captured one.

The only corpses at the city's hospital were those of ordinary civilians, including two elderly Iranian pilgrims and a child.

I wonder if the attackers didn't get away, making a rapid retreat once their ambush failed.

[luvbach1]

Exactly. No way to know how many there were in the first place and how many who escaped carried away bodies. But one would think thay had little time to remove bodies. What is the truth? And is there ANYONE who knows the truth?

[archy]

So what do those smug SOB's asking for proof of the kill, want our troops to do, take scalps next time?

I think so. Toss the scraps (feet, hands, heads etc) on top of the Brads, and lay them out for the reporters back at base.

Do the name Tony Poe ring any bells....

[mtbopfuyn]

Heaven forbid the Perky One was right. This morning she was ranting about the incident was all lies and that 40-something innocent civilians were killed.

[luvbach1]

There were at least three buildings from which the enemy was attacking, all of which were reported destroyed by cannon fire. Couldn't there be many bodies in the rubble? "Eyewitnesses" only said they saw no bodies in the street. Was the rubble searched?

[archy]

I think so. Toss the scraps (feet, hands, heads etc) on top of the Brads, and lay them out for the reporters back at base.

And then scream "WAR CRIME! WAR CRIME!"

Oh shame on you. Learn to accept and participate in the culture and customs of the local peoples, and show you respect them by emulating them. Though really, beheadings are more appropriate. Now flay the skin from his living body and wear it about yourself like a cloak, and let's celebrate diversity!

You ever party with the Nungs, Pooh?

-archy-/-

[Future Useless Eater]

hey TK, no, I just figure they rouned them all up to
deny us the 'victory', and let the Dem's call us all
'liars' again.

We'll find another mass-grave nearby, within a month.

[Travis McGee]

Tony Poe, spook extrordinaire, RIP.

[river rat]

The entire sector has to agree on the "claim proof" goods.
Everyone has to use the same, small, easy to carry, not messy and undeniable "proof"...
The "proof" must prevent any chance of double counting the hit...

Left ears work fine...

Semper Fi

[Travis McGee]

I understand they make sporty necklaces, and provide a bit of dash hanging from the rear view mirror.

[Squantos]

I've seen the sorts that hide the bodies before......so it starts again. No bodies means questionable reports. It works on the sheeple. Viable tactic. But when Abdul don't come home with the flon then the reality drops on his family.......but not on the population as would a ring of ears on a warriors belt.

Stay Safe .......

[river rat]

You think you jest?

Once - we were alerted that a Marine Recon team was outside our wire - in the tree line, requesting someone to come out and guide them through our perimiter defenses and to spend the night...

The 'yard kid that was sent out - returned all wide eyed and in shock....he said the lead NCO was wearing a loop of ears hanging from his webgear. It scared the hell out of him....

Typically, a true Recon is not out looking for a fight..
They're just moving around WAY out there to stay informed on what the assholes were up to....or to select sites for study and an approach route.
Apparently - they ran into a situation they couldn't avoid - or resist!

The folks in the forum should be informed - that "dismembering" enemy corpses is a violation of the G.C..
Unfortunatly - no one told the VC or the NVA...
Payback became a real bitch for them....

Semper Fi

[Travis McGee]

I think we need to hook up some "gun cameras" perhaps, to authenticate some of this? Or just don't make numerical claims any more. Just say we "inflicted heavy casualties" and leave it at that. Of course, there is always the chance to take them ourselves, and bury them in pigskins.

[Travis McGee]

A million years ago, in the mid 70s I was an NROTC middie, and we went out one Saturday for some M-16 fam fire in the boonies in Virginia. We had our NROTC USMC NCO along, an old gunny sgt. Sitting there on the ground for lunch eating our C-rats, he allowed as how it brought back memories of eating chow in another time and place, where they often used dead VC bodies to sit upon, to keep their butts out of the mud while they enjoyed a leisurely post-battle lunch. And he wasn't kidding.

[archy]

Tony Poe, spook extrordinaire, RIP.

He was that. Any yet, in these days of paperwork princes and corporate management warriors, he remained a guy who really knew how to get a head.

He'll be missed. And. I hope, emulated.

-archy-/-

[Billthedrill]

Good Lord - I hadn't heard. Shame on me. RIP.

What on earth is all this blathering about bodies? There was a fight, and we won. Some bad guys got killed. Am I missing something here? Are we supposed to stuff 'em and mount 'em?

[river rat]

We should all acknowledge - that EVERY damned estimate of enemy KIA in a fire fight where the ground is not occupied, secured and the bodies collected is unreliable..
Counts can be WILDLY exaggerated -- especially if the grunts know there is NO WAY to confirm or deny his claim..

Every grunt is convinced he killed at least half the assholes he fired at... doesn't usually happen that way.
The biggest surprise to me - was how many of the enemy will attempt to disappear the moment he realizes he's been spotted and targeted -- and not safely taking pot shots at his enemy...
Also - when green or excited grunts fire - and the enemy STOPS FIRING BACK FROM THAT POSITION- he almost always assumes he killed the bastard...
Hell, sometimes they do exactly as we do -- FIRE AND MOVE.

We may never know - but a rule of thumb in a fire fight of this size - with over 100 U.S. troops involved, is to maybe cut the claimed KIA in half...maybe more.

Semper Fi