Lt. Col. Allen B. West

Washington Times ^ | November 6, 2003 | Stanley SrA. USAF 91-95

[Conspiracy Guy]

Thanks. I'm mad as hell about this.

[alpowolf]

While I would like to see more facts before making a judgement, I am appalled by the attitude of so many, that an officer disobeying orders is of no consequence. When this officer's soldiers disobey his orders, just what will he say to them?

There are times--especially in wartime--when a soldier must disobey, because of conditions his superiors are unaware of. But in those cases said soldier must then take responsibility for that decision. Not in the modern way that so many of our "leaders" do, saying "I take responsibility" while accepting no consequences.

[Poohbah]

My take is that it is not leadership. Leadership is "follow me".

In that light, what's your take on the two soldiers who beat this Iraqi getting an Article 15 from West, followed by West pulling this stunt?

This came to light during an IG investigation. The Army doesn't kick off IG investigations for giggles & grins.

[Poohbah]

While I would like to see more facts before making a judgement, I am appalled by the attitude of so many, that an officer disobeying orders is of no consequence. When this officer's soldiers disobey his orders, just what will he say to them?

West apparently gave two enlisted soldiers Article 15s for beating this Iraqi.

He who cannot command himself cannot command others...

[af_vet_1981]

The colonel should be promoted. The JAG should be fired. The JAG's time would be better spent finding out who raped Jessica Lynch, that is if they run out of terrorists to represent ...

[Ispy4u]

Another?

Our numbers are growing. Maybe there will be less emotion and more sense brought to this discussion.

I doubt it.

[Poohbah]

Large fonts do not make your argument more valid.

PRESIDENT BUSH----IF YOU CONVICT THIS PATRIOT OF THIS RIDICULOUS CHARGE, YOU WILL LOSE MY VOTE IN 2004. PERIOD.

The executive branch does not run the judicial branch; they are co-equal branches of government.

TELL THAT DIRTBAG J.A.G. TO DROP ALL THE GODDAMN CHARGES NOW!

And the JAG would be absolutely right to refuse to do so, and such attempted interference in the functioning of the judiciary would be impeachable.

[Conspiracy Guy]

I haven't seen that yet. Beating is physical versus firing a gun and making a threat is mental. So I guess we need to release all the folks at Gitmo then?

[Ispy4u]

They are both considered crimes under UCMJ.

So why is it ok to punish one crime and reward another?

[Conspiracy Guy]

I'm very aware of the UCMJ. Neither should be rewarded but I maintain that a court marshall is over punishment. Are you a vet? ROE and UCMJ are standards of behavior and should be followed, but a court marshall for saving lives without taking any is too severe. Should we release the folks at Gitmo?

[alpowolf]

He who cannot command himself cannot command others...

Exactly. Which raises another issue, which we here can't know the truth of yet: was this a calculated act, or did this guy let his rage control him? We can't know which it is, but the Army needs to find out.

[twowilliam]

The only "sin" or crime committed by
Col. West is that he made a couple of
female miliary Interrogrators that had
worked on the Iraqi for several hours without
results and Col. West comes in and makes
him talk. He made the females look bad.
The Pentagon Feminists want his hide and
we should defend Col. West against this attack

[alpowolf]

It is important to remember that a court-martial is a judicial proceeding, not a punishment. In some cases the serviceman will actually choose this proceeding in order to clear his name.

Maintaining discipline in our armed forces and releasing the detainees at Gitmo are two entirely different questions. If we disciplined servicemen in Gitmo that would not lead to the release of the prisoners.

[Ispy4u]

Assault is not a minor offense and therefore is not subject to Article 15 proceedings.

The JAG in this instance had evidence that a crime (assault UCMJ Art. 128)had been commited. Therefore the JAG had to recommend court martial.

How aware of that were you?

[Conspiracy Guy]

I know what a court marshall is and I don't think he would have a chance. I wasn't with him when he did what he did but I'd rather be alive due to his action than dead due to his compliance. He is being made a poster child for lesser wrongs than I'm sure have been unreported. Conventional war vs what we now face in Iraq are so different that there needs to be two different sets of rules. THAT IS MY OPINION.

[alpowolf]

know what a court marshall is and I don't think he would have a chance.

Why not?

Conventional war vs what we now face in Iraq are so different that there needs to be two different sets of rules.

In other words, only follow rules and principles, and maintain military discipline, when it is easy and convenient to do so. We in the US pride ourselves on being different from the rest of the world, but if we use our difficulties as an excuse to sink into barbarity we are not different at all. That is my opinion.

[Conspiracy Guy]

JAG = Lawyer = Lawyer. Inaction by West = Dead US Soldiers.

We are not going to agree so I choose to stop. My comments stand as my feelings about the whole thing and I am entitled to my feelings and I am no longer in the military therefore USMJ can not surpress my feelings. See ya later on a thread where we might agree.

[Gunrunner2]

>>Furthermore, does it not bother anyone else that his wife played the race card immediately? Go back and read some of the initial articles. <<

Yes, indeed it does bother.

>> The Army is an institution that prides itself on being as close to color blind a place in America.<<

Not really, in a way. Back in 1996, when speaking with a neighbor that was a Colonel in the Army, he mentioned that promotion boards make their selection and then, if the lowest guy on the list is a white male, the promotion board then starts going down the list below the cut-off, looking for a minority that didn’t make the cut. When they find a minority they then would then compare the lowest white male select with the highest minority non-select. This “second look” may sound “fair” to some, but is actually a message that if you are a minority you get a second chance, a better chance at being promoted because the white males does not get a second look if he is a non-select, whereas a minority to get a second chance. It also tells the promotion boards they better use race as a factor in their selections. (You don’t want the boss to second guess promotion decisions purely because he is using race as the motivating factor.)


As far as responding to the media, you have a point that the media hardly ever get things right in their reporting, especially when it involves military-related items. However, given what Col West has written, and given the charges and public release statements of the Army, it is clear the Army is trying to impose a PC agenda.

The fact remains that Col West and his troops were in contact with the enemy, were facing a direct and lethal threat, and intimidation is a proven, and legal, method to extract information.

The “Rules of Engagement” movie does depict a similar situation where difficult choices on a bloody and dangerous and dirty battlefield do not necessarily allow easy decisions regarding methods and technique. I highly recommend this movie for those interested in ethical dilemma’s on the battlefield, and when said dilemmas do not necessarily track with legal requirements.

Now, let’s say Col West was part of a group that was looking for a nuke in Iraq, and said nuke is programmed to go off within an hour. They capture one of the main plotters and this bad guy knows where the nuke is. Now, do you play paddy-cake with the bad guy, respecting his “rights,” or do you use extreme measures, to include torture, to make him talk? Of course, every sane person would endorse extreme measures to extract the information. Now, change the scenario some and we have Col West in Iraq, knowing his troops are under threat, an ambush is planned and the bad guy is not talking, do you endorse the use of extreme methods (intimidation only)? You should.

If the situation was where the battle was over and the troops were in garrison, and the threat was not immediate, then let the slow, drip-drip of relentless questioning take its toll. However, this was not the case. Immediacy of the situation required affirmative action to protect his troops.

Difficult situation, but clearly Col West did the right thing at the right time.

[Conspiracy Guy]

You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. Good day.

[MeekOneGOP]

Signed petition and bttt ! ...