10/18/03 -- Jeb's Emails to FR poster, summer, today, re: Terri. (And, a Message to Michael Shiavo)

10/18/03 | summer's emails with Gov Bush

[summer]

Note to FR: I am posting here an email conversation I had today with Gov Bush about Terri, and yes, he knows I am posting it here on FR.

In my reply #1, located below this post of Gov Bush’s email, I have posted a message from me to Terri’s husband. And, no, I did not discuss with anyone my idea here to write to Terri’s husband. No one suggested it to me. Nor did I discuss it with anyone at all.

In my next reply, reply #2 below, I hope to post a message to my friends here on FR. And, while I would like to respond to each reply that may be posted on this thread, I can not. Due to a pressing personal matter, I will not be able to respond tonight.

However, my thoughts and prayers and hopes remain with each person involved in this matter.

God bless.

summer

-------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: [summer]
To: Jeb Bush
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: …question for you…

Gov Bush,

Thank you, and I have no doubt you would move Heaven and Earth for her if you could.

Sincerely, [summer]

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeb Bush
To: [summer]
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 4:42 PM
Subject: …question for you…

I cannot offer much hope. I am sickened by this situtation and pray for her family. We have looked at every angle, every legal possibility and will continue to do so. It is clear that we need to make living wills the norm for families in our state. Too few people use them.

Jeb

-----Original Message-----
From: [summer]
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 4:38 PM
To: Jeb Bush
Subject: Re: …question for you…

Thank you for your response, Gov Bush. Before I post this, can you provide any measure of hope for a legal way to preserve this woman's life? To think that all her parents want to do is care for her and not see her starve to death, is, I think, not asking for a lot in this world. My own parents would feel the same way about me, I am sure[…]

[summer]

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeb Bush
To: [summer]
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 4:07 PM
Subject: …question for you…

this was tried in the courts I believe and was rejected.

jeb

-----Original Message-----

From: [summer]
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 4:03 PM
To: Jeb Bush
Subject: …question for you…

Is there a way you can utilize Family Law as it pertains to abandonment of a spouse -- on the grounds of lack of sexual contact -- so that the path can be cleared for him to be legally removed by the state or her family as a husband?

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeb Bush
Sent: Oct 18, 2003 1:47 PM
To: [summer]
Subject: …question for you…

Unfortunately, I cannot issue an executive order when there is a court order upheld at every level in the judiciary. Mr. Shiavo is the legal guardian and I can't override that fact. I wish I could but I have no legal authority to do so.

Jeb

-----Original Message-----
From: [summer]
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 11:02 AM
To: Jeb Bush
Subject: …question for you…

Can you use your authority to issue an Executive Order, to place her in a different hospice that has no connection to her husband, as a temporary stop measure to [get] this woman back on feeding -- so that you have the time necessary to review whatever other options may exist for you? This current situation with her removed from the tubes will result in an irrevocable situation.

[summer]

I appreciate your replies on this thread, as well as the replies of some others I have read.

I do not know every fact in this case. I have not read as much as I would have liked. I know that what is happening goes beyond heartbreaking.

At the same time, people here do not seem to realize that Gov Bush is just that - a governor, and not a king. And, not a dictator. He can not at whim take court orders and simply toss them aside because his supporters would like him to do that. And, in essence, that is what people here want him to do.

People here will want to reply to this post by rehashing all the legal reasons Gov Bush should act, and, according to them, can act. But here is the thing: if Gov Bush could legally act in this matter, he would. The reason he is not, is because he has not been able to find the law/authority that his lawyers believe would allow him to do so. WHo are his lawyers? I don't know their names. I do not have their email addresses. Are they working around the clock on this? I bet they still are. But they are coming to the sad conclusion that the way out does not rest with them.

In my opinion, and I am nothing but a layman here, who does not know all the facts, there is always another way out when two parties are involved, as is the case here. Michael, her husband, has a lot of legal authority in this matter, in case you have not noticed. He could walk away. It is possible. He is a parent, and I have tried to appeal to him on that basis. To me, this is a matter of one set of parents who want to care for their daughter - and, an obstacle. But, the obstacle can remove itself as an obstacle if free will and logic prevail.

Now that the parties are outside of the adversarial relationship of a courtroom, it may be possible for Michael to consider all that he is - a parent - and who is asking for what: other parents want to care for their own child.

To me, it is a sad day when one parent (Michael) fails to unite with other parents (Terri's parents). Michael can still do it. That is what I am praying for - that he turns out to be a big enough person to want to care for his own children, and to recognize that is all Terri's parents wat - to care for their daughter. To me, as a teacher, that is what I too want from a parent - care for your children. I hope Michael will think about that. I am asking him to be the kind of parent his children may someday grow up to be - a parent who cares.

[Qwinn]

"My reading of Qwinn's post is that we should 1. keep in mind that the principle villains are the murderous husband and his enabling judge, and 2. not let the Terri case devolve into energy-diverting squabbles between FR's Catholics and Protestants"

You are correct on #1.

As for #2, not quite. I'm watching Catholics attack Catholics, Protestants attack Protestants, and virtually EVERYONE attacking Jeb (a Catholic, I believe).

I think it is ridiculous to hold Jeb accountable. I think he doesn't even stand a chance to change anything about this - or rather, he's already exhausted his chances. The judiciary in this country is supreme - no executive and no legislature could do a thing to stop this.

Some people here are posting Florida statutes as if their plain meaning matters. It does not matter, any more than "the Free Exercise thereof" clause in the Constitution seems to matter, or the "right to bear arms".

250 years of Constitutional case law has firmly established that the only thing the laws mean is what the highest Judge that will hear the case says it means. Period. End of story. The written law could say "Black is black" and the judge could turn around and say "Nope, black is white", and from that point on, as far as the law is concerned, black is white, until a higher court is willing to hear and overturn it.

You don't like it? NEITHER DO I. But stop -blaming- Jeb for a condition that has existed for 200 years before he was -born-.

My understanding is that Jeb tried to get a higher court to hear this case - because he understands (as anyone familiar with matters of law should) that the ONLY way to overturn a Judge's decree in this country is by a higher court. The higher courts have categorically refused to hear this case.

There is NOTHING Jeb can do that will actually allow Terri to live out her natural life. Zero. Zilch. Nothing.

What he COULD do that people clearly WANT him to do is express extreme outrage even beyond what he already has in the media and call this "murder" and give tacit approval for people to take this into their own hands. That way he can be set up to take the blame when they show up and use weapons to try and save Terri. And then when somebody with a sniper rifle showed up and killed Schiavo and Greer or killed several people in an attempt to save Terri, Jeb could be arrested for agitating for an armed insurgency.

I think that's ridiculous. If you think Jeb is a "coward" for not breaking the law to save her... break the law yourself! He's actually sworn to uphold the law - he's in a worse position to do what you want him to than YOU are. If to go in with guns blazing is so clearly the "moral" and "right" thing to do (which as much as I side with Terri's parents on this, I strongly disagree with), then do it yourself, but stop this pretentious, outraged demanding that Jeb give tacit approval for civil disobedience as if you are too scared to do it without him.

Qwinn

[summer]

How do you know he has or has not been praying for Terri? I have been praying but not at a vigil. Are my prayers invalid because I did not pray at the location you named?

Gov Bush has been talking to the press about this. I just posted an extensive article from the NYT with his comments. Last week he met with Terri's family. And, as for communicating with his constitutents, did you notice the email I posted here, for his base of support?

This is a very difficult situation for all involved. Gov Bush is no doubt in pain over this matter.

[Qwinn]

"If he's truly unable to provide legal intervention, what is to stop him from going to the Vigil in front of the Hospice to lend his spiritual and moral support? What's to stop him from talking to the press and informing his constituents about the issues? What's to stop him from taking a strong public stand?"

I believe he's not standing with the vigil because, as he has said, he's spending all his time looking for a loophole. He's TRYING to do what he can, and he's not giving up. If he were out there with the vigil, he would have totally given up.

As for what he's done to take a strong public stand? I believe he has. If you're upset that it hasn't gone to the point of suggesting people take matters into their own hands - well, like I said, I think it's ridiculous to say that if the chief executive officeholder of the state refuses to agitate for lawbreaking, he's a moral coward.

Qwinn

[shhrubbery!]

My husband posited his theory: That Michael wants her dead because he's already contracted to sell her organs. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I'm no expert in these things, but am skeptical Terri's organs would be in any shape to transplant if she's been starved and dehydrated to death. It's such a toxic process, I would think everything would be poisoned except for maybe her corneas.

But unquestionably Schiavo is an evil man and clearly hopes to profit from her death, if only in the sense of denying Terri the chance to prove she could be rehabilitated.

[Byron_the_Aussie]

I can't answer your questions, madame. But it oftens takes a high-profile case like this one to focus the publics' mind on injustice.

One thing I can say is that this Schiavo affair is going to open a Pandora's box. Speaking as someone familiar with the care of aged and dementia patients, I recommend all hale and hearty Freepers visualise themselves, some years hence, in overcrowded and underfunded public nursing care. Do we really want to go down the devaluation-of-life route, as they have in Holland, where a doctor decides of his own accord who gets the final needle, and when? Determining his mood from the footsteps coming through the ward, and hoping he didn't have an argument with his wife over breakfast? I see the Schiavo case as classic socialism- deciding whether the citizen still has value to the state, and making that decision without the citizen's input. Regards, By

[summer]

Re your post #45 - I do know that God can change the hearts of men.

I agree. There is still a way for Michael, the husband, to set an example for all parents - and turn over legal guardianship of Terri back to Terri's parents. And, to then live his life while not denying Terri's parents the joy they feel at being with their daughter. No one would want to deny Michael of that with his children. I certainly do not. I want all children to have a two-parent family.

[summer]

Re post #30 -- their lack of action to help Terri

There has been no lack of action - there has been a lack of authority. And, look at Gov Bush is saying in his emails: he is advising people to write a living will, so this does not happen to them.

[summer]

But unquestionably Schiavo is an evil man

I will pray that he is not, and hope the grace of God fills his heart with love.

[summer]

Qwinn, Thank you for your post #62. I would add that Gov Bush is also trying to tell people something important here: get a living will for yourself, now. Make sure this does not happen to you.

[Diva Betsy Ross]

According to the letter from the Thomas More law Center, Jeb has a duty to step in. Do they know the law over there, these old attorney generals?.. perhaps you could call them and enlighten them. Jeb asked for advice and he got 7 briefs from various law firms that he has the leagal right ,and indeed the DUTY to stop this. What say you about that?

[Pan_Yans Wife]

My point is that the three co-equal branches of government in Florida are responsible for the exercise of their laws. It is unreasonable to place all of the blame in Bush's lap at this juncture, while the legislature is eerily silent. If the people of Florida would act at once, and contact their representatives they could show the judiciary and the executive office how concerned they are. In the meantime, the law stands as interpreted by Judge Greer.

[Diva Betsy Ross]

According to the letter from the Thomas More law Center, Jeb has a duty to step in. Do they know the law over there, these old attorney generals?.. perhaps you could call them and enlighten them. Jeb asked for advice and he got 7 briefs from various law firms that he has the leagal right ,and indeed the DUTY to stop this. What say you about that?

[Byron_the_Aussie]

..what he COULD do that people clearly WANT him to do is express extreme outrage even beyond what he already has in the media and call this "murder" and give tacit approval for people to take this into their own hands. That way he can be set up to take the blame when they show up and use weapons to try and save Terri. And then when somebody with a sniper rifle showed up and killed Schiavo and Greer or killed several people in an attempt to save Terri, Jeb could be arrested for agitating for an armed insurgency...

Settle down.

What we're asking for is something more than a Pilate-type defence about what's on the statute books. We want Governor Jeb to go the extra yards to save this woman's life- or at least, to make sure it doesn't end in this way.

Roy Moore would. Ronald Reagan would have. Jeb Bush should.

[Qwinn]

"I will pray that he is not, and hope the grace of God fills his heart with love."

Now this is the most Christian sentiment I've heard yet. Far more Christian than those praying for Schiavo to be punished in Hell. At least you are praying for something that might actually save Terri's life, as opposed to just praying for revenge.

Thank you, by the way, for publishing these letters. They have convinced me without question that I was right to defend Jeb from the hysterical accusations all along.

Qwinn

[summer]

I see the Schiavo case as classic socialism

There are some people who would argue this is a classic family case. (I am not going to argue that point with you. But, some people would.)

[summer]

Thank you, by the way, for publishing these letters.

Thank you for your kind words to me -- and, for taking the time to read this email from Gov Bush.

Believe me, as governor of the 4th largest state, I am quite sure he has more than enough things to do than to write me emails.

He wrote because he wanted not only me, but you, here on FR, to know what is happening. He does care about Terri. (But, I already knew that. I'm glad you did, too.)

[summer]

We want Governor Jeb to go the extra yards to save this woman's life- or at least, to make sure it doesn't end in this way.

Gov Bush always goes the extra yards - but, Gov Bush is not God. And, Gov Bush knows that. Another governor might not.

[Qwinn]

"What we're asking for is something more than a Pilate-type defence about what's on the statute books."

This case has been argued about in court for, what, a decade now? They have reheard it again - and again - and -again-. There has been appeal after appeal after appeal. Now, 10 years later, people hear about it and think this all just started and it's getting rushed along way too quickly.

I think dismissing the efforts that have been taken to save Terri so far as a "Pilate-defense" is way too easy. Michael apparently wanted her dead from the moment he cashed in the award. If there hadn't been a very -strong- defense, she'd have died long ago.

There is a legal limit to how many appeals can be filed, and they have all been filed and heard. The Court has simply refused to hear any and all more appeals. No one, not even Jeb can force them to.

Qwinn

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Is there any reason to believe that these seven "outside" lawfirms knew more than the legal talent that Jeb, as Governor, has at his disposal? Could it be these others were wrong? If this is such an obvious case that is being thwarted by a corrupt judge, I would imagine that there would have been hundreds of lawsuits launched on behalf of Terri. That hasn't happened.