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Both extremes wrong in evolution debate
St. Paul Pioneer Press ^ | 10/17/03 | Jean Swenson

Posted on 10/18/2003 4:43:10 AM PDT by Zender500

Some people think evolution should not be mentioned at all in public schools, while others think any evidence that may contradict evolution should not be allowed.

Both views reflect poor science, and if either side wins, students will lose. Unfortunately, that's just what might happen in Minnesota.

Although many people view Darwinian evolution as a valid explanation, others have begun questioning parts of this theory.

For example, a growing number of prominent biologists are signing on to the following statement: "We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged."

Written in 2001 to encourage open-mindedness within the scientific community, the statement has been supported by Nobel Prize nominee Fritz Schaeffer, Smithsonian Institution molecular biologist Richard Sternberg and Stanley Salthe, author of "Evolutionary Biology."

Minnesota is setting new content standards for K-12 science education. Committees have written a draft of these standards and, along with Education Commissioner Cheri Yecke, are inviting feedback from people like you at public hearings and through e-mail letters. (See The Minnesota Department of Education for information and a copy of the standards.)

I commend the standards committee for its emphasis on knowledge and the scientific method. However, I'm concerned that some citizens and committee members want Darwinian evolution taught as undisputed fact while prohibiting any critical analysis of this and other scientific theories. This is no less biased than those who do not want evolution mentioned at all. History reveals how such suppression of data actually hinders science, while honest inquiry promotes it.

For example, the Earth-centered theory of the solar system proposed by Ptolemy in the first century was upheld as absolute truth for 1,500 years. Unfortunately, the church suppressed the work of Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo and others who challenged this theory with scientific evidence. Isaac Newton's publication about gravity and the sun-centered theory in 1687 finally overcame this bias and exposed the Earth-centered theory as dogma, not scientific fact.

Faith in God influenced these latter four scientists' pursuit of scientific discovery, so their conflict was not with religion but rather with bias against other theories. Those who would forbid any challenges to Darwinian theory are displaying this same kind of partiality.

Instead of answering these challenges with evidence that supports their theory, some defenders of "evolution-only" are taking another tactic — accusing all critics of trying to bring religion into the classroom. However, critical scientific analysis of Darwinian evolution is not religion, and exploration of all the facts should be encouraged.

Such exploration exemplifies the scientific method, which begins with observation and leads to a hypothesis (an educated guess that tries to explain the observation). This hypothesis is then tested, and if test results contradict the hypothesis, it is discarded or revised. A hypothesis that has been tested and supported by large amounts of data becomes a theory. A theory that withstands rigorous testing by independent scientists over time eventually becomes a scientific law.

All theories and even scientific laws must be tentative. For example, who would have thought Newton's Laws could ever be contradicted? Yet, Einstein and other scientists found that these laws could not explain certain complex problems.

Quantum mechanics became the new guiding principle, though Newton's Laws are sufficiently accurate for most aspects of daily activity.

The scientific method that has been so instrumental in advancing science requires that all scientific theories and even scientific laws at least be open to further testing. We should not be afraid to question and analyze scientific evidence; data that is valid will stand the tests.

We have the opportunity to set responsible and rigorous standards for science education in Minnesota. We should help students practice the scientific method in all areas of science, including the study of evolution — let's not encourage them to violate it.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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1 posted on 10/18/2003 4:43:10 AM PDT by Zender500
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To: PatrickHenry; Stultis; Junior; Alamo-Girl; Physicist
A fairly balanced article, in many respects.

Obviously, flaws or contradictions in the theory of evolution should be investigated, as they should in any scientific theory. The scientific method demands that, if observations and experimentation do not support current hypothesis, then the theory should be reexamined.

However, since creationism is by definition NOT scientific in nature, it still should not be taught as such. It takes the scientific method and upends it...taking observations and forcing them to fit the theory. The theory itself is never questioned or modified.

2 posted on 10/18/2003 4:53:23 AM PDT by Long Cut ( "Diplomacy is wasted on Tyrants.")
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To: Zender500
Data will resolve this issue for scientists. For those who falsely believe their religion is threatened by science, nothing will resolve the issue.
3 posted on 10/18/2003 5:33:51 AM PDT by Rudder
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To: Long Cut
...data that is valid will stand the tests.

This writer are illiterate.

4 posted on 10/18/2003 5:37:08 AM PDT by Rudder
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To: Rudder
Possibly, but this statement is quite true...

"Such exploration exemplifies the scientific method, which begins with observation and leads to a hypothesis (an educated guess that tries to explain the observation). This hypothesis is then tested, and if test results contradict the hypothesis, it is discarded or revised. A hypothesis that has been tested and supported by large amounts of data becomes a theory. A theory that withstands rigorous testing by independent scientists over time eventually becomes a scientific law."

It is a basic principle of all scientific inquiry that many creationists ignore completely. Darwinian theory has, in fact, been modified and adjusted over the years as new evidence emerged. It is far from the dogmatic theory implied.

5 posted on 10/18/2003 5:51:06 AM PDT by Long Cut ( "Diplomacy is wasted on Tyrants.")
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To: Zender500
Humans are humans, not animals, never were. How ridiculous.
6 posted on 10/18/2003 5:56:19 AM PDT by HankReardon
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To: Rudder
This writer are illiterate.

I are often guilty of a similar solecism when I make media a singular noun with a verb to match.

But to the point: What's to be made of the honest questions within the (apparently evolutionary) community?

. . .For example, a growing number of prominent biologists are signing on to the following statement: "We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged."

Written in 2001 to encourage open-mindedness within the scientific community, the statement has been supported by Nobel Prize nominee Fritz Schaeffer, Smithsonian Institution molecular biologist Richard Sternberg and Stanley Salthe, author of "Evolutionary Biology."

7 posted on 10/18/2003 5:59:14 AM PDT by rhema
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To: Long Cut
However, since creationism is by definition NOT scientific in nature, it still should not be taught as such.

Well, I'm gonna be all pedantic and quibblish.

I reject entirely the idea that something cannot be scientific "by definition". As I have said many times, the nature of science is determined by the content of science. If a genuinely successful and useful theory fails to meet some defining criteria of what is supposed to constitute an acceptable scientific theory, then the criteria will be changed and the theory retained. This has happened over and over again in the history of science.

The only reason that creationism should not be taught is that it is not, in fact, part of the content of science (as can be determined objectively by consulting the professional literature). It may be interesting to opine about whether creationism could be scientific, or whether that is impossible for some reason or another, but this is ultimately superfluous. There either is, or there is not, some creationistic theory that "works," that is useful to working scientist pursuing their research projects.

At present there is not such a theory. I can't imagine that there ever will be such a theory. But if I'm wrong, and some genuinely successful creationistic theory should emerge, and be actually (not just as a pretence) utilized and implicated in ongoing research by working scientists, then fine. And if that should ever happen, then the theory WILL be taught in the public schools, simply because it will in fact be a part of science. That's how this all works.

It takes the scientific method and upends it...taking observations and forcing them to fit the theory.

Yes. Granted that this is how it works out, so far, as a sociological fact. For instance every creationist organization that I know of has a "statement of faith," and these invariably commit members a priori to at least some scientific (as well as theological) conclusions. However should some genuinely successful creationistic theory emerge (however unlikely that may be) then it would not require such twisted and ideologically narrow support.

The theory itself is never questioned or modified.

This just isn't true. First of all there is no "theory" of creationism. At best there are scenarios and narratives on the one hand, or vacuous sub-theoretical generalizations on the other; and they are multiple. Different flavors of creationism often differ from each other as dramatically as they each differ from mainstream scientific accounts.

Secondly, modifications do occur. It may not always be for the right reasons. For instance it may have to do with a balancing act between "how much bible can we work in" versus "how much conventional science do we have to jettison," but changes do occur. For instance it used to be dogma at the Institute for Creation Research that "entropy" began with the fall of man (after Adam ate the apple). ICR president Henry Morris insisted on this idea, but other creationists said this was nonsense, and the idea was quietly dropped when Morris retired. The "vapor canopy" theory also used to be all the rage among YECs, but it too has fallen into disrepute among most. (This is mainly due, I think, to the problem with the ocean boiling heat that would be released when the vapor becomes liquid. For whatever reason, creationists don't want to invoke a miracle here.)

8 posted on 10/18/2003 6:08:30 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: Stultis
Your pendantic and quibblish corrections accepted! Of course, if actual scientific proof of that scenario emerged, that would be another thing altogether. Science is actually pretty malleable when you think about it...all one needs to change or eliminate a theory is verifiable proof.
9 posted on 10/18/2003 6:15:59 AM PDT by Long Cut ( "Diplomacy is wasted on Tyrants.")
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To: HankReardon
If it blastulates, it's an animal. Humans form a blastula during embryogenesis, therefore they are animals, Q.E.D.

Although, IIRC, there was a similar argument during the Scopes trial when William Jennings Bryan positively refused to be a mammal. Some wag pointed out that he had a point since the defense had defined mammals as having hair and producing milk from their mammay glands, whereas Bryan was bald and never been known to nurse his young.

10 posted on 10/18/2003 6:16:11 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: Stultis
Blastulates? who cares!? You cannot distinguish between a human and an animal? Get real!
11 posted on 10/18/2003 6:31:53 AM PDT by HankReardon
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To: Stultis
If it blastulates, it's an animal. Humans form a blastula during embryogenesis, therefore they are animals, Q.E.D.

Um, not quite. If it blastulates, it's designated or defined as an animal. The very concept of "animal" is a convenience of the human need for classification, the compulsion for which is at the root of the need to fit data to theory.

12 posted on 10/18/2003 6:36:24 AM PDT by Carry_Okie
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To: rhema
Maybe these scientists really are skeptical of random mutation and selective pressures being the engine behind evolution, but they seem not too willing to provide an alternative.

Day in and day out for many, many years now, the theory of evolution has been and is tested in laboratories and field studies throughout the world. If there is a scientific alternative, I haven't heard of it.

I'm skeptical of the whole article.

13 posted on 10/18/2003 6:40:36 AM PDT by Rudder
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To: Carry_Okie
If the evolution fairy tale is real, it took humans less than 2 million years to evolve to the atom splitting, space traveling animal we are. Dinosaurs were susposedly evolving for 10's of millions of years, why did they not achieve such greatness? I have stumbled upon it! The mystery of the disappearance of the dinasour is solved, they built huge space craft and migrated to a more hospitable planet! let's teach it to the children now! Pass my a banana, grandpa!
14 posted on 10/18/2003 6:41:28 AM PDT by HankReardon
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To: HankReardon
human and an animal?

Human beings are one of many species of animals. You know this, why be absurd about it?

15 posted on 10/18/2003 6:43:43 AM PDT by Rudder
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To: Zender500
The nutsos are still at it I see.
Neurotics who have a compelling need to have the final word at both extremes are a drag on humanity.

If they all were committed and restrained, the world's mental health would improve dramatically.

16 posted on 10/18/2003 6:44:02 AM PDT by Publius6961 (40% of Californians are as dumb as a sack of rocks.)
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To: Rudder
Is not absurd to pretend not to be able to tell the difference between humans and animals? Think about it! We are not animals.
17 posted on 10/18/2003 6:45:47 AM PDT by HankReardon
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To: Zender500
I'd love to stay and chat, but instinct is telling me to go to work now. maybe some time next week instinct will tell me to go do my banking. chat to you animals later, if instict dictates.
18 posted on 10/18/2003 6:50:03 AM PDT by HankReardon
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To: HankReardon
Take a course in anatomy and physiology, take your medicine, read some Ayn Rand novels and relax.

Where did your mommie and daddy get you...from a store? You didn't come from the womb since that's a mammalian (an animal) structure.

19 posted on 10/18/2003 6:57:18 AM PDT by Rudder
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To: HankReardon; Stultis
I honestly don't pretend to know how life came about on earth. I have observed natural selection in operation. As for evolution as we understand it, I have my rational doubts.

As for the topic of the thread, with the exception of mathematics, I think it a mistake to raise children telling them "This is how it is," and later expect them to be good scientists. Over and over in my career I have seen theories tumble in the face of data. We might as well start raising kids to expect it.

Children are pretty smart. If you tell them, "This is a current theory, but we really don't have enough data to know," they find it exciting. It leaves room in science for them to find some of those answers. If you tell them, "This is how it is and you are wrong to think any other way," and then they find out that the theory you were spouting was wrong, you lose credibility as a teacher but they are stuck with bad intellectual habits.

Kids learn fast. In out little home school, I sometimes give them an old textbook (usually better written than new books), have them read it, and then tell them what has changed since it was written. They get big smiles realizing that we're all human and have a lot to do before we grow up.
20 posted on 10/18/2003 7:01:03 AM PDT by Carry_Okie
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