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Conservative attorneys urging Bush to intervene in Schiavo case
Florida Times Union ^ | Thursday, October 16, 2003 | MITCH STACY

Posted on 10/16/2003 12:12:21 PM PDT by nickcarraway

Edited on 04/21/2004 9:00:47 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - The parents of a severely brain-damaged woman and others fighting to keep her alive stepped up the pressure on Gov. Jeb Bush to intervene in the case Thursday.

The feeding tube keeping Terri Schiavo alive was removed Wednesday, culminating a decade-long legal fight between her parents and her husband. Doctors say she will live as long as two weeks without it.


(Excerpt) Read more at jacksonville.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: florida; prolife; righttolife; terrischiavo
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To: Not gonna take it anymore
If it weren't for modern medicine she would have died long ago.

If it weren't for modern medicine WE WOULD have ALL died long ago.

81 posted on 10/16/2003 1:48:56 PM PDT by THEUPMAN (#### comment deleted by moderator)
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To: ladyrustic
This husband will not even allow nurses to try to feed his wife, and in fact has removed visitation priviledges from the woman's siblings, when they tried one day to feed her a bit of pudding.

Feeding her anything without a physician's recommendation would be an incredibly stupid thing to do. Isn't one of the problems that she cannot swallow?

82 posted on 10/16/2003 1:49:14 PM PDT by huck von finn
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To: 88keys
It's extremely sad that some people are put in the position of "grasping at any straw" (the family), and that other people do not seem convincing in their "patient advocacy" (the husband and "heir", and his long-time girlfriend)...but I would hope thoughtful people would put aside "emotional outbursts" from all quarters, and seriously consider the facts as we know them, and the subsequent implications...

There's an awful lot of hearsay involved in these emotional posts. You make a valid point.

83 posted on 10/16/2003 1:51:19 PM PDT by huck von finn
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To: Capitalist Eric
I didn't give you any emotional outburst. Quite, the opposite, I asked you to support you assertions, which I suspect are based in emotions.
84 posted on 10/16/2003 1:51:53 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Capitalist Eric
I ask again, why???

Why what? Shouldn't the onus of proof be on the person who wants to take a life? Shouldn't you give the proof, since you demand that the government have the right to take a life?

85 posted on 10/16/2003 1:53:12 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Not gonna take it anymore
Sometimes we have to let people go.

Yes indeed we do, if we care about preserving the dignity of their lives. I'm sorry that happened to your mother, but heartened that you later responded the way you did.

86 posted on 10/16/2003 1:54:16 PM PDT by huck von finn
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To: mict42
""HER CIVIL RIGHTS HAVE BEEN DENIED"

That is correct.

The fundamental right in this case is the right to life. The court is failing to recognize that historically held and recognized right, but instead is focusing on other extraneous and irrelevant points. In fact the court holds that the woman is still alive by it's own words.

It so happens that the guardian recognized by the court is the husband. The husband's legitimacy to hold guardianship rests on the basis that he be acting in his incapacitated woman's best interest. Historically the fundamental feature of a person's best interest is that of their very life, not any particular quality of that life. Life is the most fundamental civil right. In this case neither the court, nor the recognized guardian hold that interest and right to be of any consequence.

Here is the relevant FL law regarding this matter regarding guardianship and the requirement that a guardian act in the guarded's best interest. In this case the facts regarding the guarded's wishes concerning life support measures are unknown and both the guardian and court are presuming her will for her. Both FL and US code holds life as a fundamental right.

Fundamental purpose/ legislative intent. FL stat. 704.1012

744.1012 Legislative intent.--The Legislature finds that adjudicating a person totally incapacitated and in need of a guardian deprives such person of all her or his civil and legal rights and that such deprivation may be unnecessary. The Legislature further finds that it is desirable to make available the least restrictive form of guardianship to assist persons who are only partially incapable of caring for their needs. Recognizing that every individual has unique needs and differing abilities, the Legislature declares that it is the purpose of this act to promote the public welfare by establishing a system that permits incapacitated persons to participate as fully as possible in all decisions affecting them; that assists such persons in meeting the essential requirements for their physical health and safety, in protecting their rights, in managing their financial resources, and in developing or regaining their abilities to the maximum extent possible; and that accomplishes these objectives through providing, in each case, the form of assistance that least interferes with the legal capacity of a person to act in her or his own behalf. This act shall be liberally construed to accomplish this purpose."

Physical health and safety-her health- her right!

Jeb, the Fl AG and US AG Ashcroft should make this clear to the court and the public, and also take appripriate action to insure the right to life and the will of the incapacitated are held as fundamental concerns in all of these matters.

87 posted on 10/16/2003 1:56:23 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: 88keys
If she will definitely die, and there's no purpose in keeping her alive in her vegetative state, then let's help her go right now, and easily. Right?

I tried to answer a similar question in post # 62.

There are other ethical and religious issues involved that you might want to consider in order to understand this saga.

88 posted on 10/16/2003 1:59:13 PM PDT by george wythe
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To: huck von finn
"Feeding her anything without a physician's recommendation would be an incredibly stupid thing to do. Isn't one of the problems that she cannot swallow?"

She CAN swallow - proved by the fact that she does not drool.

They are witholding any test to see if she can be fed without the feeding tube.

We treat dogs better than this!!

89 posted on 10/16/2003 1:59:56 PM PDT by LADY J
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To: Babalu
My "gut-level" problem with this whole case is that the courts have sided with nothing but the husband's oral testimony that he is merely complying with her wishes

Not only his motive suspect, his claim contradicts his sworn court testimony. When he was suing the hospital etc. he testified he needed the money to care for her at their home. He did not say anything about a wish to die then.

90 posted on 10/16/2003 2:01:47 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: LADY J
She CAN swallow - proved by the fact that she does not drool.

They are witholding any test to see if she can be fed without the feeding tube.

You really think that the people in the hospice don't know whether or not she can swallow--after what, 13 years?

Her caregivers know whether or not she can swallow--and if she can, the extent to which she can.

91 posted on 10/16/2003 2:04:29 PM PDT by huck von finn
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To: huck von finn; Capitalist Eric
If she were not able to swallow, she would drool. That is inevitable. She does not drool. This is more than enough of a basis to believe that (perhaps requiring some rehab, but not necessarily all that much) she could be fed without a tube. There is no reason to believe that is the limit to which she could be rehabbed either. Fact is, NO ONE KNOWS.

The fact that the husband stands to keep a great deal of money over this, on top of the fact that he and the judge have specifically denied any attempt to rehabilitate her in any way, should trouble anyone. What conceivable legitimate reason would there be for her husband to deny permission to allow her parents and their doctors to help her eat on her own, given the fact that she doesn't even drool? Many people who get rehab -do- drool and rehab doctors are still often able to teach them to eat on their own. There have been worse cases than her that have been successfully rehabbed.

There is so much potential conflict of interest floating around that the only sane decision would be to TRY and rehab Terri and see if it works. If it doesn't work, alright. But the fact that they would kill her before trying, even once, is inexcusable to me, given the evidence that she -is- minimally cognitive, able to swallow, and able to recognize her parents.

It stinks way too much. I've never heard of a case that stunk of something criminal as much as this. Even Clinton didn't stink quite this bad. That's not an emotional response. That's an objective analysis of the situation.

Qwinn
92 posted on 10/16/2003 2:06:55 PM PDT by Qwinn
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To: huck von finn
"Her caregivers know whether or not she can swallow--and if she can, the extent to which she can."

Yes - that's what I'm saying. They have withheld all kinds of basic treatment from this woman. It sounds like you have not read all the information available.

Many times a feeding tube is used for the convenience of staff - so that they don't have to hand feed a person.

93 posted on 10/16/2003 2:10:24 PM PDT by LADY J
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To: THEUPMAN; Not gonna take it anymore
Ain't that the truth.... my goodness I have had such severe infections of my sinus' and ears over the years and NOT to mention 4 times with double pneumonia.... I should be dead 50 years now!

Poor Terri when I think how that monster-so-called husband of hers had treated her.... why, I could kick his a$$ets into next week!

94 posted on 10/16/2003 2:10:55 PM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: Qwinn
If she were not able to swallow, she would drool. That is inevitable. She does not drool. This is more than enough of a basis to believe that (perhaps requiring some rehab, but not necessarily all that much) she could be fed without a tube. There is no reason to believe that is the limit to which she could be rehabbed either. Fact is, NO ONE KNOWS.

See my post #91. Her doctors know. Her caretakers know. There's no way she could have been in hospice care as long as she has without their knowing.

95 posted on 10/16/2003 2:11:29 PM PDT by huck von finn
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To: TexasCowboy
Until you get educated on all the ramifications of this action, you really don't have anything to contribute.

Well, I'm back. And while you may have a point, it seems pretty cut-and-dried.

1. She is not legally competant, therefore her closest next-of-kin is now responsible for her.
2. Since the husband is now the primary person to decide what is best, the parents have no legal standing.
3. Since she is in a vegetative (or autonomic) state, removing her means of life support- whether a feeding tube or respirator or whatever- can be done. The end result, whether considered ghastly or not, is the same.
4. The legal precedents for this have been long-established, and are relied upon by those of us still living to preclude our being a turnip for (up to) decades past where we're already dead.
5. The judicial system has upheld this (repeatedly), and all the "suspicions" and possible monetary or personal motivations are irrelevant.

Did I miss anything?

96 posted on 10/16/2003 2:12:46 PM PDT by Capitalist Eric
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To: huck von finn
"You really think that the people in the hospice don't know whether or not she can swallow--after what, 13 years?"

Considering we KNOW they never tried to feed her - uh, yes. They wouldn't have a clue. Why would they? The only hint her caregivers could have would be if she drooled - and she doesn't. There's nothing else about being with someone on a feeding tube for 13 years that would give a clue as to their ability to swallow.

"Her caregivers know whether or not she can swallow--and if she can, the extent to which she can."

They never tried, and as such, this is a completely groundless statement.

What would be the harm in trying?

I can understand why some people get so fiercely emotional about this - the notion that it's better to just kill her than to let someone try to feed her is apalling.

Qwinn
97 posted on 10/16/2003 2:13:59 PM PDT by Qwinn
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To: Capitalist Eric
Eric, I have read your posts and understand where you are coming from. I do disagree with you. You say that Terri will never recover. How can you know that? I ask because 18 years ago my nephew, Chuck, was given the same prognosis. He was in a serious motorcycle accident and sustained severe brain damage. I have heard these medical arguments used in Terri's case first hand from Chuck's own physicians. Eric, we were given the option of removing Chuck's life support and we chose to do so. Miraculously, he began to breath on his own. We were told that he was vegetative. We did not choose to believe that. He was placed on a feeding tube and after many years we were given the option of removing that as well. We didn't do that as quickly because of his seemingly intense will to keep on living. We felt it proper to allow him the assistance that he needed.

One day his mom went in as she did everyday and decided to eat her lunch in his room. On this day she had carried a bowl of soup or broth as she was feeling a little under the weather. She normally didn't eat in front of Chuck as she felt guilty for doing so when he couldn't. On this day Chuck, the vegetable, was really staring her down, so to speak. She asked him if he wanted some and by her understanding he communicated "yes" to her through grunts. She gave him a drop to begin with.

He rolled it around in his mouth as it was foreign to him having been so long since he had had any food. He eventually swallowed it. She proceeded to add to the amount until it was a spoonful and he was fully capable of swallowing. I believe that he would have devoured the entire thermos had she let him. She called in the nurse who in turn called the Dr. They immediately began therapy with him to teach him to be able to control his swallowing. Now Chuck eats with his "good side".

See, Chuck's mom fought tooth and nail to get rehabilitation therapy for Chuck. His father was against it. His reasoning was that Chuck had suffered enough and that the rehab would be too painful. His mom even lost custody of him for a short while but won it back.

Chuck has had therapy although he still cannot speak. We don't know if he ever will without some surgery and the $$$ isn't there to have that done now. However, just last month he began saying "mama" on his own. Yes, 18 years later he has begun to speak. It's limited, I know. Chuck still lives in a nursing home but he is responsive as Terri is. The clips of her are almost identical to him. We KNOW that he recognizes us. We also know that he feels emotions and the he feels pain. He may never go back into society as a functioning human being. We don't care. He is with us and when asked if he is happy he grins so big.

Years ago he became notorious for "shooting the bird" at people who fussed at him. When we ask him why he is doing things that he isn't supposed to do, according to his original prognosis, and what he thinks about the Dr's who said these things he offers his one finger salute.

I wish that he had had the opportunity to receive the intense therapy that he needed but his father denied him that. His mother pays out of pocket for any extra therapy so it is seldom that he gets specialized treatment. We work with him as much as possible. We stretch muscles, we get him to try to vocalize. Hell, you would swear that he sings sometimes. The main thing we did is not confine him to a room in a home. We carry him to the beach. We bring him home for a couple of weeks at a time when we arrange for one of us to care for him. We rotate in that department. We treat him like he is as normal as you can be. Just this 4th of July my husband gave him a beer. You should have seen him drink that beer. Oh well, I could tell you so much more but won't.

My point is, do not ever say never. You will always be shocked at the human will.

98 posted on 10/16/2003 2:14:28 PM PDT by PleaseNoMore
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To: huck von finn
"See my post #91. Her doctors know. Her caretakers know. There's no way she could have been in hospice care as long as she has without their knowing."

She has no business to be in hospice care either. She never has been diagosed as a 'terminal' patient.

99 posted on 10/16/2003 2:15:47 PM PDT by LADY J
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To: nickcarraway
>>the fractures have been attributed to brittle bone disease

I'd have "brittle bone disease" too if my husband whacked me around.

100 posted on 10/16/2003 2:19:15 PM PDT by deannadurbin
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