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To: OIFVeteran
Also I have noticed you have either missed or ignored my previous message to you asking you if you felt the reasons why a group of states wants to secede is important.

In case you missed it, I pointed out that you liked to post the various secession statements from the three states that can clearly fit the "it's all about slavery!" narrative, so because it seems as if you want support of slavery to be the only reason why the Southern states seceded, I am asking you if you consider the reasons why states want to secede significant?

Do you consider their reasons for seceding important to the discussion?

637 posted on 01/13/2020 11:27:01 AM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no oither sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp
I meant to reply to that post, but forget. I do want to say one thing though before I jump into that question. For all of our disagreements I do believe you are arguing from good intentions. Unlike many people I have discuss/argued this topic with who, when you scratch the surface, it really boils down to racism on the part of the person arguing for the lost cause. I know it is hard to judge people from just their writings but I have never gotten the feeling/sense/vibe from your postings that racism has anything to do with that. And please bear with me for this long post.

Since I don’t believe what the southern states did was secession I can’t answer the question as you posted it to me. Now do I believe why people invoke the natural right to revolution matters? Yes, I do. Why? Because human beings are moral creatures and we make moral judgements about ours and other people’s actions.

Let me use a hypothetical what if to demonstrate my point. Let’s imagine the King George and Parliament listened to our founding fathers, gave them representation in Parliament, allows them to run their affairs here, etc. and we do not become an independent country.(or in your view states)

Now fast forward to 1833. The British empire outlaws slavery. The American colonies rebel (for the sake of this hypothetical the northern states still have slavery) and issue a Declaration of Independence. This version is written by a colonial from Mississippi and the second paragraph states-

“Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.”

Now compare that to the second paragraph in the actual Declaration of Independence-

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the present King of Great-Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World.

I believe that any reasonable person after reading those two paragraphs would say the second group of people had both better cause and more moral reason for rebelling.

638 posted on 01/13/2020 12:32:09 PM PST by OIFVeteran
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