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To: Kalamata; OIFVeteran; DoodleDawg; DiogenesLamp; rockrr; x
In his post #645 Kalamata launches yet another time-warpingly long response which will have to be split into smaller pieces, this is the first.

Kalamata: "Obviously, the 10th Amendment didn't help Joey's understanding, revealing he is more legally-challenged than most.
Perhaps if the framers had also explained that the delegated and prohibited powers are found in Article I, Sections 8 and 9, respectively, it would have been easier for him to understand them?"

Nonsense, the truth is that no Founder ever explained the 10th Amendment, or any other section, as somehow justifying an unlimited "right of secession" in the way our Lost Causers fantasize.

Kalamata: "Rebellion is not secession, Joey, except in the rhetoric of tyrant and their groupies."

But rebellion is rebellion, and waging war against the United States is treason.

Kalamata: "Besides, I am not referring to the secessionists, who were states within a foreign nation at the time Lincoln invaded.
Rather I am referring to Lincoln making war on the state of Maryland to keep them from seceding.
That was treason:"

And there it is, a typically insane Democrat mindset -- make up look down, dark look light, left look right, it's what being a Democrat is all about.
Here's the real truth: by the Constitution's definition, when the Confederate Congress declared war on the United States, May 6, 1861, that made every pro-Confederate action in Union states acts of treason.

Kalamata: "A reasonable person could make a case that Lincoln also committed treason when he usurped power to suspend habeas corpus from the Congress, and then used that usurped power to arrest Union citizens at gunpoint without charging them with a crime, and to imprison them without due process."

No reasonable person would ever argue such nonsense, only insane Democrats, the same people who today want to remove another great Republican president based on similarly absurd charges.

Kalamata: "Secession can never be rebellion or insurrection, except in the warped minds of tyrants and their groupies."

Pretended secession immediately becomes rebellion, insurrection and treason when secessionists begin threatening and firing on United States citizens.
That's not "tyranny", it's simple law enforcement.

Kalamata: "But there is no doubt Lincoln committed treason against Maryland.
All who gave and aid and comfort to Lincoln were also traitors."

That's just more lies, because there is no doubt that Marylanders who waged war against the United States committed treason.
The Maryland legislature voted four-to-one against secession, and those who later supported the Confederacy were never more than 1/3 of all Marylanders.
So Maryland, like Kentucky and Missouri, were majority Union states whose pro-Confederates met the Constitution's definition of "treason".

Kalamata: "Obviously Joey is confused about the definition of 'republican'.
I am a devout conservative republican."

Nonsense, you were never a Republican, you were born Democrat and learned all the Democrat Big Lies.
At some point (typically 1964) a lot of old Democrats turned their blue coats to red, but they remained Democrats at heart and have been trying to sell their Big Lies to actual Republicans ever since.

Kalamata: "The laws in a republican form of government are bound by a constitution, not by the ever-changing whims of power-hungry politicians."

Such as those who began declaring secession and war against the United States in 1860-61.

Kalamata: "The big-government, central-planning progressive policies of the Lincoln administration, became the modern-day policies of the Democrat Party.
That explains the love-affair of the progressive-Marxist democrats, like Joey, with Lincoln."

Yesterday we again saw the insane anti-American practices of Kalamata's fellow Democrats attacking a genuine Republican president, just as they did in 1861.

Kalamata: "The fact that Marxist "historians," such as Eric "Phony" Foner, are hard-core Lincoln groupies f."

At this point we might have some pity on poor Kalamata because he's now deployed every loser-argument in the book -- he's called us Nazis, Hitler, Marxists & communists.
And all of that to distract from the fact that Kalamata himself is a Democrat, born, bred, raised & trained as a Democrat, he can't control it or stop it.
All he can do is spew out Democrat lies.

Kalamata: "Maryland was one of the United States, Joey, and it never made war against it.
Rather, Lincoln usurped power from the people and made war against Maryland to strip it of its republican form of government."

And the Democrat lies against Lincoln just keep on coming, just as against our current Republican President.
The truth is that Maryland refused to secede, remaining a Union state and that made all Maryland pro-Confederates treasonous.
The claim that Lincoln waged war against Maryland is just cockamamie nonsense, worthy of Democrats like crazy Roger Taney.

Kalamata: "The Confederacy was a foreign nation when Lincoln invaded, and could not possibly have committed treason against the United States."

By 1865 many Union leaders like Lincoln, Grant and Chase were willing to forgive Confederate treason in order to restore "peace in the family."
Chief Justice Chase even advised Jefferson Davis' lawyer that the new 14th Amendment had already punished Davis and therefore a trial for treason would amount to double jeopardy.
But so far as I've seen, no Union leader pretended that Confederates had not committed treason, only that it was now time to live & forgive.

Enough for now, more later...

1,455 posted on 02/05/2020 2:25:45 PM PST by BroJoeK ((a little historical perspective...))
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To: BroJoeK
The truth is that Maryland refused to secede, remaining a "Union state and that made all Maryland pro-Confederates treasonous. The claim that Lincoln waged war against Maryland is just cockamamie nonsense, worthy of Democrats like crazy Roger Taney."

The despot's heel is on thy shore,
Maryland!
His torch is at thy temple door,
Maryland!
Avenge the patriotic gore
That flecked the streets of Baltimore,
And be the battle queen of yore,
Maryland! My Maryland!

Dear Mother! burst the tyrant's chain, Maryland!
Virginia should not call in vain,
Maryland!
She meets her sisters on the plain-
"Sic semper!" 'tis the proud refrain
That baffles minions back again,
Maryland!
Arise in majesty again,
Maryland! My Maryland!

I hear the distant thunder-hum,
Maryland!
The Old Line's bugle, fife, and drum,
Maryland!
She is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb-
Huzza! she spurns the Northern scum!
She breathes! she burns! she'll come! she'll come!
Maryland! My Maryland!

https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/01glance/html/symbols/lyricsco.html

1,457 posted on 02/05/2020 2:36:01 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no oither sovereignty."/)
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To: BroJoeK
>>Kalamata wrote: "Obviously, the 10th Amendment didn't help Joey's understanding, revealing he is more legally-challenged than most. Perhaps if the framers had also explained that the delegated and prohibited powers are found in Article I, Sections 8 and 9, respectively, it would have been easier for him to understand them?"
>>BroJoeK wrote: "Nonsense, the truth is that no Founder ever explained the 10th Amendment, or any other section, as somehow justifying an unlimited "right of secession" in the way our Lost Causers fantasize."

No, that didn't help either. Joey is still as ignorant about the interpretation as ever. Let's try this:

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite." [James Madison, Federalist No. 45, in Bill Bailey, "The Complete Federalist Papers." The New Federalist Papers Project, pp.214-215]"

Joey is a Statist, so I also doubt that explanation by Madison will penetrate his thick skull full of mush, unless he is deceiving us, which is a strong possibility.

For the rest of you, interpretation of constitutional law is a simple concept. In this case, the "few and defined," listed in Article I, section 8, do NOT include a power over secession, one way or the other; nor does Article I, section 9 prohibit the power over secession to the states! Therefore, the power over secession belongs to the states, by default.

Mr. Kalamata

1,467 posted on 02/05/2020 8:37:50 PM PST by Kalamata (BIBLE RESEARCH TOOLS: http://bibleresearchtools.com/)
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