Posted on 12/11/2015 11:02:50 AM PST by Swordmaker
The Consumer Reports survey of 56,000 subscribers established, without a doubt, that MacBooks are more reliable than Windows machines. Is it because MacBooks cost more? I asked CR. Here's what they said.
Apple sold over $25 billion worth of Macs in their 2015 fiscal year, giving an average selling price of $1,237, quite a bit higher than the average Windows notebook price. Is that why MacBooks have half the rate of serious problems?
That average price includes a tiny percentage of Mac Pros, and a larger percentage of iMacs, but something like 75 percent of all Macs are MacBooks. Looking at MacBook retail prices, which range from $899 for the bottom of the line 11" MacBook Air to $3199 for a loaded 15" MacBook Pro, $1200 is probably close to the mark for an average MacBook price.
There are plenty of $500 Windows notebooks, but that is a price point where Apple doesn't compete. Looking at ultrabooks though, the pricing is similar to Apple's. So, is it the cost of the systems that determines their reliability?
Consumer Reports, in this particular survey, doesn't ask about price. But James McQueen of CR noted in an email response that:
. . . [W]e found that reliability isn't necessarily related to how much money you spend on a laptop. HP's premium ENVY line is near the bottom, with a 20 percent failure rate, while the company's less-costly Pavilion line fares better, at 16 percent.
Okay, so price ≠reliability. Gosh darn it! Life is so-o complicated!
But better (for MacBook buyers): the price you pay for MacBooks comes with a jumbo helping of reliability.
CR defines serious and catastrophic breakdowns in a way that, perhaps, long-time computer jocks like us may not. In a comment on the CR web site, Mary Elizabeth Bernal, who works at CR, noted that
. . . [O]ur laptop reliability survey is designed to capture the ownership experiences of "everyday" people, as they perceive it. . . . [T]his survey allows our organization to provide the general public with a holistic understanding of what they can expect from the laptops currently available for purchase on the US market. Furthermore, let us assure you that . . . we do define what we mean by "serious" and "catastrophic" breakdowns in the survey.
When I left Silicon Valley for the mountains of northern Arizona 10 years ago, I was startled at how differently "everyday" people saw computers. It's binary: work; or, not work.
They don't say - "oh it's a hardware problem, no bad on Microsoft." No, they say "my Windows notebook stinks 'cause it broke." CR is doing the absolute right thing.
For me, and I suspect for most people who lug them around, notebooks are a tool. And when it doesn't work it is a problem.
That's may be why at tech conferences I attend, MacBooks are way over-represented - typically 40-60 percent - among highly educated and sophisticated users. They are tools and they're good ones.
If I were running Microsoft's Windows customer sat group, I'd be on this like a dog on a bone. MS is only supplying the software, but their OEMs are killing the MS brand with reliability that is half of what Apple achieves.
Which has to be one of the reasons that Microsoft is getting into hardware like the Surface. They know what MacBook users like about their machines, and they know that their current OEMs are't providing it.
Advice to Microsoft: take a close look at Tim Cook, supply chain guy extraordinaire. Apple insists on quality and - this is key - they get it.
The Mac's growing sales in a declining PC market shows that customers do as well.
Comments welcome, of course. How would YOU advise Windows vendors to improve quality?
Apple screwed up when they built this machine. They forget planned obsolescence.
Consumers' Reports went with a very simple metrics. Read the article:
"CR defines serious and catastrophic breakdowns in a way that, perhaps, long-time computer jocks like us may not. In a comment on the CR web site, Mary Elizabeth Bernal, who works at CR, noted that
". . . [O]ur laptop reliability survey is designed to capture the ownership experiences of "everyday" people, as they perceive it. . . . [T]his survey allows our organization to provide the general public with a holistic understanding of what they can expect from the laptops currently available for purchase on the US market. Furthermore, let us assure you that . . . we do define what we mean by "serious" and "catastrophic" breakdowns in the survey."When I left Silicon Valley for the mountains of northern Arizona 10 years ago, I was startled at how differently "everyday" people saw computers. It's binary: work; or, not work.
They don't say - "oh it's a hardware problem, no bad on Microsoft." No, they say "my Windows notebook stinks 'cause it broke." CR is doing the absolute right thing.
Did your computer work or not work. Very easy question to answer. Yes/No. How often did it Work/Not Work. Those questions are the questions people are most concerned with. Does a computer work when they need it to work.
Remember that this article refers to a *survey of users.*
Any survey of reliability is going to be a survey of users, bolobaby. It has to be. There is no other way to measure the metric because no one complains about a computer that doesn't break, and non-broken computers are never sent to a repair depot and don't get counted in a percentage of machines repaired. . . because they haven't been.
Further, this was a survey of 56,000 users. . . it was likely a very well responded survey where you are not going to get a bunch of rabid Apple users skewing the results as you imply. People are generally honest in reporting their experiences. Contrary to your belief's bolobaby, Apple users hold Apple to a higher standard as far as quality control is concerned than general PC users. Apple users EXPECT a quality experience and complain loudly when they don't get it! They don't sweep unacceptable user experience under the rug as you assert.
KarlInOhio, try to get bolobaby to specify anything about Apple that is actually true. He will spout myths that are easily refuted.
There’s one small bit of data about notebook prices, *but only for one specific BRAND and TWO models*. Gee, I wonder why they didn’t do a cross-brand/model price parity comment? Maybe it didn’t support the conclusion that the author wanted? We’ll never know, because the amount of data provided is so limited.
The sample of 56,000 would cover that, when one make stands head and shoulders above all the rest. They also addressed the cost factor in their article, bolobaby. There is something else at work. . . and that is the OS running on the other machines that may be built to the same standards as Apple's.
Frankly, you seem to be the one who is tossing garbage in, garbage out in your commentary.
Snow Leopard isn't the browser. . . it's the Operating System. I would need to know about which particular 17" Mac you are running before I could tell you whether you can update your Mac to a later OS or Safari browser.
Go on everymac.com and locate your particular Mac model and it should give you everything you need to know about what it is capable of handling in the way of OS X upgradability. Be certain you have the right 17" version as they do vary in capabilities. You can use "About this Mac" under the Blue Apple Menu (I think it was still Blue in Snow Leopard, might be Black) and "More Information. . . " Or "System Report" depending on what they were using in Snow Leopard to find out exactly what model you have. There's also a model number on the bottom of your computer (but that can stay the same across several versions) in very tiny print.
I love it when the paid social marketer tries to butt in to the conversation of others. The best part is that he thinks he owns this thread and we’re not allowed to comment on it without his express approval (which is only granted, of course, if you toe the Apple line).
So, just between us - and not the paid social marketer - please be clear that I am not saying any one product is more reliable than the other. I’m simply pointing out that surveys are not facts, they are measure of opinion. As the paid social marketer who graces FR amply demonstrates, for some people, Apple can do no wrong, so any survey is inherently biased. I have yet to meet a single person who believes the same of Microsoft, and am more inclined to believe that Microsoft carries enough baggage to tend overly negative regardless of facts.
These are opinions, of course, but since the whole premise of the post is based on opinion sampling, I think it is fair to share a slightly skeptical view of any survey based approach to.measure reliability.
Skepticism about a survey is one thing. Being deliberately insulting is something else, and just wrong to boot often goes hand in hand with being insulting.
The “paid social marketer tries to butt in to the conversation of others”...that’s all you have?
Really. You are going to make some kind of statement about the conversation protocols and abilities other people?
You come into a thread, not only do you have nothing to contribute to the conversation about the reliability of a product, what you attempt to “contribute” is nothing more than insulting the person and the subject as cultist, and then you complain about someone butting in on the conversation of others?
Here’s a suggestion: you can redeem yourself by admitting truthfully you don’t know anything about it at all, and were just being purely emotionally driven in your posting. We won’t even ask you why you felt like you had to post that nonsense.
Yes. Surveys are opinions. The “opinion” Swordmaker posted had a basis in factual techniques, right or wrong, and if you took the time to actually look at it, and you actually knew anything about the mechanics of surveys, you would likely be able to get an idea of how they acquired it and how valid it is.
But it sounds like you prefer to just stick with “opinions” because you don’t have to back up an opinion. That would require too much effort, and might expose you.
There is that old saying that opinions are like a certain bodily orifice, and just like that anatomy, they smell, and everyone has one. Your post verifies that.
Is that really something to brag about?
Perhaps you missed the first post explaining the reliability question more? This is a second post after our resident social marrketer, Swordmaker, tried to inject himself. Given his obvious status a paid social marketer, I no longer respond to his attempts to sell me on Apple. No insult was intended toward you.
Further, if you doubt Swordmaker ‘ s status as a paid social marketer, I simply say, “If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.” Review his history in depth and you will see the same.
68.43% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
MS is only supplying the software, but their OEMs are killing the MS brand with reliability that is half of what Apple achieves.
Comments welcome, of course. How would YOU advise Windows vendors to improve quality?
Windows dominates the OS landscape because those $500 notebooks put owning one within financial reach of a lot more people. What they're asking Microsoft to do is help Apple by pricing those people out of the market.
This is also a public forum and YOU do not own the thread. There are no private conversations in threads on FR. What you post publicly cannot be "Just between us" as you imply and your comments about me are meant to be deliberate denigrating public ad hominem insults intended to belittle me and deprecate my comments and facts. I will continue to comment as I see fit to counter YOUR deliberate dis-information, propaganda, or outright falsehoods.
You are acting like an asshat troll again, like you always do in Apple threads.
Does anyone actually NEED to carry around the weight of a DVD/BluRay player in a portable computer when using one is now pretty infrequent?
In fact the vast majority of users have little to zero use for an optical drive that requires it to be built into the computer. If, one very occasionally needs one, you buy an external optical drive for that occasional use instead of carrying one around with you at all times.
Even in my office, where we produce numerous radiological images weekly, we only needed to use an optical drive ONCE in the past two years! Everything else was handled via Internet transfer or with a Flash memory drive. Optical disks are the technology of the past and no longer necessary on portable computers. They are obsolete.
Thanks, rlmorel. I appreciate your support.
Is that really something to brag about?
LOL. Yeah, that's one of the few things I don't like about them. Personally, I like having a DVD drive available. Makes it easier to share such things as pictures and stuff with folk without uploading it somewhere else. It's one of those things that's a personal preference things. It's the primary reason I use a Note8" tablet rather than an iPad or iPad Mini. My wife passed a couple of months ago, and I could easily repurpose her iPad mini to my own use, but it's not really in the cards because it's not really what I need. It will probably be given to one of the nephews once i get around to wiping it. That's not saying that there is anything actually wrong with it. It's actually a nice bit of kit, but I like having the card slot on my Note even if I don't really use it much now that I've got an SSH server installed on it.
Some folks are going to be OK with haing an external DVD, some won't. If I recall correctly, Apple was also the first major company to abandon the floppy drive. At the time, it was a pretty big deal, but other tech was there to make it not such a big loss.
As you can tell I'm a bit ambivalent about it all. I like Apple products, but don't use them (except a phone) myself because I prefer Linux.
Only your paid social media troll bias could possible claim Apple is more reliable.
Apple isn’t any more reliable than any other device.
You really should stop with the Apple propaganda. It makes FR look ridiculous.
Apple is obviously having serious issues with their poor reputation for reliability when they resort to paying you to post this type of propaganda on social media sites like FR.
Maybe. That depends on the user.
If you're measuring reliability based on problem reports then the more components you have the more likely you are to have a hardware problem eventually. If you eliminate the problems by eliminating the component but are still comparing it to systems that have that component then you've made it statistically more reliable, but you've done it by comparing apples and oranges.
Actually, I just thought of a better way to explain why the CR survey is just noise and should be taken with a grain of salt...
Coffee!
When people are surveyed about their coffee preferences, Starbucks always comes up as a winner. Consumers claim Starbucks coffee tastes great in almost every survey.
Buuuuuuut...
In blind taste tests, Starbucks almost always comes out at the very bottom. They’ve been beaten by everyone from McDonald’s to Dunkin Donuts to Folgers to the Walmart brand. Seriously.
This demonstrates the power of branding. Starbucks’ powerful brand makes people THINK their coffee is delicious when it is actually bitter swill. Not to mention the fact that the type of people who are willing to pay $7 for a Venti Mocha Latte Whatever need to *justify* to themselves that the expense is worth it. They are being fleeced for bean filtered water so they will TELL people in surveys that Starbucks is the best.
Now, does this apply to Apple in this survey? I don’t know. It may and it may not. But Apple has built their brand with the messaging of “it just works” and “better than Microsoft.” If that was the core reason you bought something, you may be more inclined to believe it’s true just like Starbucks’ drinkers believe their coffee is delicious. It’s not backed by facts - it’s backed by *messaging*.
This is how the AGW crowd convinces people. They have powerful messaging that many people WANT to buy into. Same thing with many electric car buyers. Reminds me of that South Park episode where all the electric car buyers thought their farts didn’t stink because they were so smug for having bought the “right car.”
So, this survey is noise without any actual data to back up what fails, when, and how that really compares in an Apples to apples sense. And, it can’t be what people TELL you fails, because people will also tell you that the Earth is getting warmer, but the thermometers tell us something very different.
This is the difference between facts/science and surveys/studies.
“You have absolutely ZERO evidence counter to that.”
Dude - you provide all the evidence anyone ever needs every day on this forum. Don’t want to be called a duck? Stop acting like one.
Quack.
Would you advise people to only install Linux on premium hardware out of concern that it will reflect poorly on the OS if there are reliability problems caused by lower-end hardware?
One poster (KarlinOhio) was making the observation that he thought the survey was meaningless without breakdowns (a reasonable observation, even though that was not at all what the survey was about at all) which Swordmaker addressed in a subsequent post at #16, even though he didn't really need to, given the stated goal in the survey by Consumer Reports.
I was responding to your post at #15, which was not based on any presented fact, composed completely of opinion, and in addition, was delivered in a deliberately derogatory manner. That was specifically why I posted to you at post #18.
As for the rest of it, Swordmaker provided rationale for his initiation of a thread about a Consumer Reports survey of 56,000 people when he shares specific data about the individual components that Apple purchases being of different quality lots, rather than simply buying the cheapest, which is what many PC manufacturers do. I think that is important to know, might have a bearing on reliability, no?
Nobody can fault Swordmaker for doing that. This is Free Republic, and I am pretty sure Swordmaker is a dues paying member as I am, and probably you as well. If he wants to post these advocacy articles and Jim Robinson has no issue with them, then there isn't a problem. Heck, we have dayglored and his ping lists and threads which I read...and get valuable information out of as well, since I work with Windows, Macs, and Unix platforms in my work.
But if you just drop into a thread out of the blue to make a statement like that, and call someone a "paid social marketer", how on earth does that make you any different from someone who works with GreenPeace calling Lord Moncton or any other person who disagrees with their "opinion" a "paid shill of the oil industry"?
You went to great lengths to compare Swordmaker's obvious advocacy of Apple products to the AGW environmental movement. If one characterizes the AGW movement as a cult based on emotion rather than a subjective presentation of rationale, it does sound like some elements on this thread, but not Swordmaker's position.
He at least provided some rationale to buttress the findings of Consumer Reports. I am not a believer in Consumer Reports in general, but I don't believe they falsified their data to present a rosy picture for Apple products.
And, I am not the only one that doesn't see an issue with this survey. As the author of the article from ZDnet stated, "...For me, and I suspect for most people who lug them around, notebooks are a tool. And when it doesn't work it is a problem. That's may be why at tech conferences I attend, MacBooks are way over-represented - typically 40-60 percent - among highly educated and sophisticated users. They are tools and they're good ones..."
My observation as an IT professional agrees very much with this observation by the author. There are a disproportionate number of IT professionals who use MacBook Pros, some of the most talented people I have met use them. When I have taken the time to ask them why they use an Apple product, they usually respond with something like "I do everything from here. It has all the tools I need, for all the operating systems, and it is a nicely made, reliable device." I am paraphrasing, but that is what many of them say. These people aren't "cultists", many of them started on Windows or Unix, and ended up using a MacBook for the reasons stated.
So, the blanket statement about "cultists not admitting reliability problems" was a non-sequitur for me in the context of this article.
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