Posted on 12/04/2013 3:17:41 PM PST by servo1969
So why disqualify sources that contain eyewitness accounts?
Do you have any sources, aside from the gospels, that claims Pontius Pilate had Jesus killed for claiming divinity?
***I need to do an oops here. I thought you said, “Do you have any sources, aside from the gospels, that claims Pontius Pilate had OTHERS BESIDES Jesus killed for claiming divinity?”
So I’ll begin addressing your original question. Yes, there are multiple sources asides from the gospels. If you read the book I suggested, you’ll find them. There is one significant source, a circular letter from the Sanhedrin (note that Sanhedrin records themselves were utterly destroyed by the invading Romans) and several other sources cited by Josh McDowell in “Evidence that Demands a Verdict”.
because he distrusts ‘believing’ eyewitness accounts. Even though the evidence of COMPLETEly changed lives means nothing to him. It certainly meant something to the Sanhedrin, who were in enmity with christianity. At any rate, if he is honest, the testimony of the ENEMies of Christ will mean something. It is a good test of honesty.
Can’t find anything but error in your prattle.
>> “At that time the irrational numbers hadn’t been discovered.” <<
.
An incredibly foolish statement. Long before Pythagoras square roots were common computations.
Of course people calculated square roots. 2 is square root of 4. 1/2 is square root of 1/4. What one of Pythagoras’ students figured out was that ratios (which they used) were not sufficient.
The two stories we have is they either killed him by dropping him off the side of a boat, or they exiled him.
So you admit that sanhedrin records are not available. That is a start.
Suetonius wrote in his Life of Claudius: “As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.
Of course, by the time Claudius was emperor, Jesus was already dead.
Note this is no assertion that Christ was god, nor that he was killed by Pilate. This seems to be a common trouble maker, no hint of the divine.
eye witness of what?
Babylonian Talmud “It has been taught: On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out, in front of him, for 40 days (saying): ‘He is going to be stoned, because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.’ But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of Passover.” Sanhedrin 43a; df.t.Sanh. 10:11; y. Sanh. 7:12; Tg. Esther 7:9 (Another version of this text reads: “Yeshu the Nazarene.” Yeshu or Yehoshua is Hebrew (or Aramaic) for Jesus’in English this name is also translated “Joshua.” The Old Testament hero bore the same name as Jesus the Messiah. “Hanged” is another way of referring to a crucifixion; see Luke 23:39 and Galatians 3:13
So was he hanged, or stoned? What is the testimony? Where is Pilate? This account differs from the gospel, and can not be used as corroboration with the bible account.
Lucian of Samosate: Greek satirist later half of 2nd century spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians but never argued that Jesus never existed. “The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day, the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account...
Of course satire is a form of humor. Satirists would never let facts get in the way of a good joke. Besides, he is no eye witness. He was born after any putative Jesus would be dead. I can hear the satire dripping from his ‘distinguished personage’...
Just getting around to glancing through some of these posts.
The concept of either eternal life or a “poof” you’re done; based on your belief of Jesus; doesn’t make sense to me. It would seem that either people have no soul at all, or they have a soul, which would seem to have to follow some sort of spiritual law of everlasting. Sort of like the physical laws of nature that apply to ALL of us.
I can see the concept of no souls, and just “poof” when we die. And I can see the concept that people have souls that are everlasting. But the idea that some souls might continue, and others not doesn’t seem reasonable.
I read some book where the author made the case that ALL will see the glory of God, and be in his presence. And that those who don’t “like” God (like Christopher Hitchens perhaps), will be in agony as His light shines continuously on them.
I’m not so sure about that though, as sin separates us from God. So why would the sinful be able to be in God’s presence (but suffering because of it)?
Good question. Because there were eyewitnesses to what went on STILL alive when these writings were completed. So the eyewitness accounts had OTHER eyewitnesses around who could corroborate or discredit what was said by the eyewitnesses. I hardly think some anonymous writer could come out with a fictional rendition of Jesus' life and have it be accepted by the very same people who were THERE when the events happened. There were other "gospels" written than the four we have in the Bible but they were often from unknown writers or were written hundreds of years after the last living person of the time had died. That is one of the reasons why they aren't part of the Bible.
Just a guess, but it may have had something to do with the Pharisees trying to come up with the initial judgment against Jesus (which, like Stephen, would have been stoning). The Pharisees had been trying to trap Jesus with His words for a long time. But then the Pharisees became afraid of the people following Jesus, so they trumped up the political charges to hand Him off to the Romans.
Where of course he was traded for Barabas and ended up hanging on the cross.
But this testimony is not by an eye witness. Rather, he reports the common rumor, years later. If you accept this testimony, you have to accept the term 'enormities' for the early Christians.
Because we can not evaluate the eye witness, except when they make egregious falsehoods, such as an eclipse during the full moon, a star that hovers over a particular place on the ground, or even a virgin birth.
Then we can reject such testimony out of hand. Certainly a reporter who includes such impossibilities deserves derision, not belief.
In what verses do you claim Jesus identified himself with G-d?
I agree with you that ALL souls will go on after death - some to eternal life with God in heaven and some to eternal separation from God in hell. In Isaiah 45:22-24, we read:
“Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone are deliverance and strength.’” All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.
And also in Philippians 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
As far as the damned being able to still be in the presence of God for eternity, I would say no, I don't believe they will other than the idea that no one can flee from the presence of the Lord or go anywhere he is not also, just that no sin can ever enter heaven again and God cannot "look upon sin" because of His holiness. Hell is called "deepest darkness" and other terrifying things. It won't be a peaceful rest, that's for sure.
And I agree.
Those who would claim He did not say THE EXACT WORDS are being quite disingenuous.
Even when John the Baptist was having doubts, He did not SAY THE EXACT WORDS, but instead let the miracles speak for themselves.
Luke 7:22, Matthew 11:5
Why NOT???
They might have lied.
/devils_advocate_off
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