Posted on 11/06/2008 7:23:27 AM PST by WesternCulture
Count me in.
It kind of evens out when The Spanish Inquisition is brought into the discussion.
Are you a Lutheran if you know what Leftsa is? I know what it is but I can’t spell it.
well my better half is Swedish and Lutheran, im Catholic and our little 3 year old prince is Lutheran...so i guess tolerance works...
to be honest, its the same God, the same Jesus and we have far more in common then not. of course that is just my humble opinion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefse I had to hope I spelled it right, right sort of bread made out of potato, Lefse I guess. I’ve had that a few times.
I also had to ask my Scandinavian barber about Lutefisk which so often is described in unsavoury terms but he seemed to like it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutefisk I’ve never had that.
I purchased salted licorice at the Ikea. I don’t recommend it but it stops one from dipping into the candy all the time at that.
uff da
The problem is that only the Spanish Inquisition is ever brought into the discussion.
The English Inquisition (sometimes called euphemistically the "Monastic Visitations") is never discussed.
Catholic monarchs prior to the Peace Of Westphalia killed thousands of religious dissenters - including a good number of Protestants.
Protestant monarchs prior to the Peace Of Westphalia killed thousands of religious dissenters as well, including many Catholics.
As you said, it "evens out".
But on these boards, the sins of those Protestant monarchs are usually conveniently forgotten, while the sins of those Catholic monarchs are (a) exaggerated beyond the actual facts, (b) new sins that were never committed are invented, and (c) the sins of these monarchs and their associates are imputed to all Catholics.
Yup.
Even though there is no single recipe for Lutheran hot dish, we all know it when we see it.
Did not know this.Should have(FarMor from your lan)
Waldstein wasn’t merely arrested for his scheming; he was assassinated.
Waldstein’s ambition defeated him more surely that anything Gustavus Adolphus threw at him.
Don’t confuse “celebrate” with “party.” Every one of our worship services is a celebration.
Gustavus Adolphus himself didn’t believe in tolerance and such things which the Swedish military elite at that time probably considered as girly nonsense.
What Gustavus believed in was the RIGHT to restore true Christianity and the RIGHT to rule over territory that succumbed to Swedish weapons.
In any case, one of the lasting consequences of the Thirty Years’ War was a greater deal of religious tolerance shooting forth.
Today, few Protestants in Germany oppose what Gustavus once did. Sooner, Northern Germans hail him as a defender of the faith and culture of their own land.
Sweden owes Germany a deep apologize for the atrocities that we as a nation bear responsibility for, but again, something positive has come out of this havoc, just like Germans, Americans and French today are rather good friends (Chirac excluded from it all).
Yeah for the heretics!!
“well my better half is Swedish and Lutheran, im Catholic and our little 3 year old prince is Lutheran...so i guess tolerance works...
to be honest, its the same God, the same Jesus and we have far more in common then not. of course that is just my humble opinion”
- True indeed.
Best of regards from my family to yours and best of regards from a freedom loving country to another one,
WesternCulture
“Very nice post. Thank you.”
- Glad you appreciated it, fellow freeper.
Regards from Göteborg/Gothenburg
I’m with wideawake. The Reformation should never have happened and was one of the greatest tragedies in human history.
“you know what a Lutheran Church Basement Woman is.”
- Throughout my Swedish life, I have often wondered if the primary function of our churches are being storage facilities for cakes and coffee.
Christianity is my religion and Lutheran cakes are fine with me, but nothing compares to raw moose meat and mead.
- The burning issue of it all:
Did the coalition of the Habsburgs and The Vatican have the right to make claims to (what today is known as) Germany as well as to France based on religious believes?
In any case, I think we agree the Thirty Years’ War left something resembling a never healing wound behind.
On the other hand, as a European I would say there's a lot of benevolent dialog taking place over these matters among us Europeans of today and that Europe IS possible to restore.
Chávez can't run the world, neither can China, India or Saudi Arabia of today.
A united Europe and a strong America working in unison COULD, once we Westerners realize how much a young man or woman from Glasgow, Britain has in common with a young man or woman from Dayton, Ohio risking his/her life fighting for the freedom of the proud nations of Iraq and Afghanistan.
(1) The Vatican made no territorial claims in northern Germany at all.
(2) The Emperor's case against the various statelets of northern Germany was that their change of religion did not entitle them to absolve themselves of their sworn allegiance to him, nor did it entitle them to the confiscation and destruction of Church property.
(3) The Emperor made no territorial claims on France and France asserted no claims in Germany. France's sole purpose was to aid the Germans or the Bohemians or anyone else who wanted to break up the Habsburg territories, thereby reducing Habsburg power.
(4) Gustavus Adolphus' sole goal was to wage an inexpensive war (i.e. the French agreed to help bankroll his efforts) that would enable him to seize as much new territory as possible for his own profit.
Gustavus also had a taste for war and enjoyed it for its own sake.
It is hard to say whether he had any serious spiritual attachment to the Lutheran system or not. The rightful heir to the Swedish throne was Sigismund III, a Catholic. His sole claim to precedence over Sigismund was his Lutheranism - so it isn't clear whether his Lutheranism was a matter of intense personal devotion or political expediency.
Most of his reputation as a devout Lutheran rests not on the bloody catalogue of his recorded deeds but on hagiographies written about him after his death by courtiers and clergymen who owed their status and wealth to his dynasty.
Had religion really been his motivation for entry into Germany, it seems unlikely that he would have waited eleven years to get involved. During that time he engaged in a strategically unnecessary but very profitable war with the Livonians. There was no easy money in the German war - until the Catholic French paid him to intervene.
Up to that point, he was content to watch the plight of his fellow Lutherans quite disinterestedly from a distance.
Undeniably, you seem to have a rather clear picture of what happened.
However, I wish to correct your eyesight just a little.
To begin with, The Vatican itself didn't make territorial claims to Northern Germany, but the Habsburgs (Spain, Austria and allies like Milan) did and received support by the Vatican.
The “Holy” Roman Emperor never was a religious nor a political institution to which Northern German states owed any obligation whatsoever. Perhaps in the sphere of Wagner operas they later on did though.
The Habsburgs made no claims to French soil. But it was apparent that the Habsburgs were trying to encircle France. Remember the Netherlands was Spanish territory at that time.
Gustavus Adolphus was indeed a true warrior. From his own perspective, God gave him the throne of Sweden as well as handing him opportunities of expanding his kingdom eastwards as well as in a southern direction. What would have been a better approach than waging the wars he did? Letting the Habsburgs or perhaps the Russians gain total control of Continental Europe?
Thank you for the contribution you've made to this thread, but rest assured I'll continue remembering everything that is right about Sweden and Swedish history, especially after having eaten a Gustavus Adolphus pastry on the 6th of November (but honestly, I doubt I'll ever eat again - I've never had anything as rich in calories as the cakes I made today).
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