Coding misstep forces new Firefox release

News.com ^ | 2005-07-18 | Renai LeMay

[softwarecreator]

Firefox has a problem with Quicktime and Flash.  I know there is a new version of FF which I haven't dowmloaded yet.  Maybe they fixed it in this release.

[N3WBI3]

I only make bets im 99% sure ill win ;) He wont find a post of me saying OSS is bug free, at most hell find one where I say OSS product A has few bugs than Closed Source product B. Did you see his first attempt?

I posted a bur report about ie, and he took that to mean I was saying OSS is perfect..

[N3WBI3]

Where is the link to the post and the quote?

[for-q-clinton]

I already gave you the link and explained it. Now either honor your bet or continue to obfuscate and act like Clinton and try to redefine the word is.

[for-q-clinton]

Ill (sic) go away for a week if you say that because you criticized FireFox on this thread you are saying IE is perfect and without bugs.

Ok, if you say all I have to do is say that, then consider it done. "Because I criticized FireFox on this thread; therefore, IE is perfect and without bugs". Now let's see if you'll honor this committment. NOTE: You never once claimed it had to be true or provable that IE is perfect and without bugs. So buh-bye.

[N3WBI3]

What you said is that I implied MS has bug every day (which might be fair enough). WHat you did not come close to showing me was an example of me (or anyone on my ping list) saying OSS was perfect and without bugs)..

When you attempt to change the language of the debate instead of addressing content of it youre acting like a Marxist...

[birbear]

Find one post where I said OSS was perfect in any aspect at all and Im gone for two weeks. Ill up it even more Ill put up my OSS ping list, find anything anyone on that list 'my ilk' have seriously said OSS is perfect and there are no bugs or security issues and Ill drop off for a week. But of course you wont, you'll find a slew of people that say its better (and I am one of them) but nothing implying perfection of immunity from bugs.

I'm not one who goes around bookmarking things, just so later (months later) I can say, "X said Y about Z on 7/20/05, and here's the link."

But I, too, have gotten the impression that Open Source advocates (and Mac users) rail against MSFT every time a new bug is discovered, or security hole found. I've read comments like, "That never happens on Linux," or, "I don't even run virus checker on my Mac."

Maybe it's jealousy on my part. But that type of attitude frosts me, so any time I do hear of a security breach in Linux, or a virus for the Mac, I applaud. As for this latest thing about Firefox, it makes me chuckle -- and I use Fire Fox exclusively.

As for Bill Gates bing a left winger... I don't care. MSFT has made me money. I lived in Seattle for awhile, and it was the result of Microsoft being in Redmond that I had a job. So you may find Gates a ridiculous little socialist bug, but in my world view he's created an awful lot of success stories that wouldn't have otherwise been created.

[N3WBI3]

Fine I'm gone for a week but in the future keep in mind that when you say "but but open source people say its perfect" that you in fact are the only one that has said their favorite brand is perfect. Ill be pinging you to every MS bug with that quote thanks for the ammo, and Ill see you next week..

NOTE: I'm doing this for the ammo on you, because you still can not link a single quote where I say OSS is perfect and I can link more than a dozen of me praising MS products..

BTW if anyone would mind the OSS ping list for me until next Wednesday I would appreciate it, thanks..

[softwarecreator]

But I, too, have gotten the impression that Open Source advocates (and Mac users) rail against MSFT every time a new bug is discovered, or security hole found. I've read comments like, "That never happens on Linux," or, "I don't even run virus checker on my Mac."

THANK YOU!!!!  I knew I was not the only one.  This attitude is prevalent amongst a large number of the members of the Linux Brigade.

[for-q-clinton]

Gotta read this post :-)

[for-q-clinton]

Amen! You summed it up perfectly. We know the attitude exists, but they deny it when challenged. Just like the word "Free". Often times they'll claim Linux is free. And they say I don't pay a thing for it. Then when you point out it costs more to maintain linux than it does windows, then they say "I never meant like FREE BEER--I mean like FREE as in FREEDOM". But then they go right back to saying hey I didn't have to pay anything for the 5 copies of Linux.

I guess you get what you pay for. Buyer beware. Anyway, don't look for N3WBI3 to reply he's honoring his post to leave for 1 week. Kudos to him.

[softwarecreator]

Anyway, don't look for N3WBI3 to reply he's honoring his post to leave for 1 week

Look man, I am on your side on this discussion but you really didn't prove your case.  If prefer MS to Linux and probably will for the forseeable future, although Linux has improved a lot.  You and I both know that people do come across with this attitude of "Linux has no bugs and is 100% perfect and is impossible to have security issues."  Newbie is not one of those types, he readily admits to flaws & points out a few on his own.  I might have missed a post or 2, where did you prove him wrong?

Kudos to him

Yes, he is a very honorable person.  He and I have definitely not seen eye-to-eye on some of these issues but he is always calm, listens to your points and responds intelligently.  We had quite an argument when I first joined FR, but that same day he spent quite a bit of his time to guide me thru a Linux problem I had.  He has done this for me a few other times, even after we have a semi-heated discussion.  I've seen him do it many times to others as well.

I just thought you should know that while you ping people and enjoy your "victory".  Would you have honored your word the way that I know he will?

BTW:  Your screen name is GREAT!!  Wish I had thought it up.

[for-q-clinton]

Absolutely I'd honor any committment I make. Do you have any reason to even suggest that I wouldn't. I assume all people honor their committments. And if they prove me otherwise, then I never respect them again.

But as I read back through his posts (quick glances)...I concur he definitely isn't the Linux bigot types that I was trying to attract with my sarcasm. But he took the bait.

But my point (which still stands) is that many OSS bigots jump on the anything but M$ bandwagon and bash them whenever a bug is announced. However, whenever OSS has a bug, then it's "Oh but they'll fix it quickly, or at least it not as bad as that one M$ bug".

However, I do find it very humorous that the OSS ping list will be without its owner for a week. I hope some huge OSS news breaks in the next couple of days ;-)

[softwarecreator]

I didn't mean to imply that you would not honor your word, I'm sure you would, but trust me SOME people who follow the OSS threads would never admit they were wrong and refuse to pay the price for their wager.

My question still stands though, where did you prove him wrong?

As far as the OSS pings go, don't worry, I'm sure if people see interesting stories they will ping the others, I know I will if I can, but I don't read the Open Source websites too often which is why I rely on NW3B to notify me.

[for-q-clinton]

2 places. First, he said if I said IE was perfect he'd leave. That's why he left. I said it (not that I believe it though).

As far as proving him wrong. It goes with the logic of blasting Microsoft for a bug and then touting Open Source. The logical extension of this is that OSS doesn't have bugs. A quick scan of his threads revealed that he posted a Microsoft bug article (and even changed the title to mock Microsoft). And then he praises Open Source. To me that puts him in the same category as those other people that were discussed earlier. You know "Get Linux if you're tired of bugs" crowd.

[softwarecreator]

Okay, so he left because you said IE was perfect.  I guess I would not want to be near you either if you made that statement.  =)

To me that puts him in the same category as those other people that were discussed earlier

I would have to disagree with your assessment.   He shouldn't be lumped into that category because he believes that Linux is a far more stable OS than MS, in some ways it is, I just have many issues with Linux's installation and 3rd Party software.  Oh well, if that's what you feel then so be it.  He's gone and that won't change.

Unfortunately, I have to get to sleep ... talk to you at another time ... maybe even at another OSS ping.  =)

[Bush2000]

NOTE: I'm doing this for the ammo on you, because you still can not link a single quote where I say OSS is perfect and I can link more than a dozen of me praising MS products..

You just don't seem to be able to grasp this concept: When you constantly criticize the quality of IE or Windows -- and then downplay Linux or FireFox or other OSS flaws -- you're essentially making an implicit declaration that OSS offers fundamentally better quality. Which is a sham lie. As I've pointed out countless times to you and others, software defect rates for the overwhelming majority of projects are the same (defect/KLOC) -- regardless of whether the development methodology is open source or closed source. If you doubt this, pick up a software engineering text by Watts Humphrey, Steve McConnell, SEI, and others. I don't think that average OSS guy is foolish enough to believe otherwise; however, I've certainly interacted with a sizable number of OSS zealots (here and elsewhere) who have drunk so much Kool-Aid that they're oblivious to the reality of bugs in their code. I'm not sure that I would put you in that category. You do, at least, acknowledge that OSS tools have some bugs (thanks for posting this article, BTW).

[1L]

It can also have trouble with PDF pages.

[Bush2000]

You know "Get Linux if you're tired of bugs" crowd.

The Mac zealots are just as bad, IMO.

[xmm0]

Sorry to jump in. But, I am also one of the OSS proponents and I'd have to say that its not the flaws that are the main concern between the two, its the solution. Remember the infamous "Ping of Death" attack? Linux was patched within 3 hours, how long did it take for MS to have an update for it? I would actually go so far as to say two releases of FireFox in one week could be a good thing. It shows the speed at which they can resolve a problem.