Posted on 06/05/2009 9:01:38 PM PDT by ReformationFan
Attendance at Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church in Houston would decline rapidly to the point that the property would be sold back to the city of Houston to pay off ministry debts. It would then be re-converted into a basketball arena.
(Excerpt) Read more at kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com ...
Er...no. Calvin was one of many who testified at their trial, a judge presided, a jury convicted, and the police carried our the order. Whether you agree with that sentence or not is irrelevant.
That soap isn’t strong enough to wash the blood from his hands, and that is quite relevant, thank you.
Hmmm...seems to me Someone once said, “Judge not and you will not be judged.”
There is no such thing as a "good" Calvinist. Aren't all Calvinists 'depraved'?
We do not believe we need John Calvin to show us the way of salvation.
You'd never know it by listening to most Calvinists.
We believe the way of salvation has been available to mankind since the Fall.
What happened to double predestination? Is salvation available to all mankind?
We acknowledge Calvin as a good theologian who outlined biblical doctrine in a solid, comprehensible way.
This is a fair statement, but doesn't mean his doctrine is always correct.
We do not view him as infallible...
You'd never know it in reading most of the comments by FR Calvinists.
... nor as any type of savior, just a good pastor.
You don't know if he was a good pastor. We do know he was arrogant, and that is hardly a quality of a good pastor.
Obviously not a teaching Calvin lived by. And as Prov. 6:16,17 says, ‘God hates hands shedding innocent blood and the heart fabricating hurtful schemes.’ Is that judging, too?
Well said. Calvinists fail to see that we are ‘preordained’ to do good works and to be conformed to Christ’s image. Predestined to try our best to conform to Christ’s image. We are all commanded as Christians to win souls for Christ. The Great Commission is offensive to some, but we are all called to witness for Christ, “To whom much is given, much is expected.”
But if one were to ‘party on’, he probably doesn’t have a ticket.
It is - folks just don't want to see it.
What happened to SOLO SCRIPTURA?
I don't know - it's not a Calvinist/Biblical point. SOLA Scriptura, on the other hand...
The whole world was lost in the darkness of (foreordained) sinCalvinism: There is no will but God's will and John Calvin is his prophet.
The light of the world is Calvin.
I'm not sure why you have this visceral hatred for Calvin. Jean Calvin was instrumental in starting over 240 churches throughout Europe and having thousands coming to know Christ in a meaningful way. His writings have been the stalwart of the Protestant faith for over 500 years and he is still being talked about and his writings are still being read-unlike many other Christians. His theology, whether people care to admit it or not, is ingrained as part of the Protestant confession of faith, including the Baptist Confession of 1642 and the Westminster Confession of 1644. Jean Calvin writings reaches back to the very earliest of church fathers of which he quotes numerously. The Systematic Theology and Institutes are the very first serious effort of putting together a comprehensive systematic theology-one that doesn't really exist elsewhere.
Most today have simply abandon the true Protestant faith for a quasi-Catholic feel good huggy-huggy God. People silly argument over whether God chooses people purposely ignores the fact that He has always called out a people onto Himself. After all, He called out the children of Israel and "chose" them for 2,000 years. DUH!!!
If people would spend more time trying to understand the scriptures and the nature of God, perhaps they would understand that it's God who calls the shots-not us.
“There is no such thing as a “good” Calvinist. Aren’t all Calvinists ‘depraved’?
Yes, I was just using “good” in a relative way. We are all sinners. Scripture is clear on that.
“What happened to double predestination? Is salvation available to all mankind?”
We believe in the free offer of the gospel. God has commanded us to preach the gospel throughout the world. God knows who He will call out of this world. We don’t. So we do our job - give the gospel, pray for the lost, witness, etc., trusting Him for the outcome.
“You don’t know if he was a good pastor.”
I base that on his apparent great success in winning many souls to Christ, and apparently discipling them well (not perfectly, nor does any pastor). Also, on his writings, which edified and discipled many more than were in his immediate church.
“We do know he was arrogant, and that is hardly a quality of a good pastor.” An arrogant pastor is a terrible thing. But I don’t know why you say Calvin was particularly arrogant.
Do you believe Calvin was a Christian? If not, why not. If so, you should not attack him on such a personal level. We should love one another.
What happens? Well I guess that depends on how they treat the 49% who are not Calvinist.
Since ‘Calvinist’ theology originated with Paul, perhaps your quarrel is not with the Institutes and Commentaries, or the Confessions, but rather with the Bible.
For those who prefer truth to fiction, it's important to remember Servetus denied the Trinity which was at that time a capital offense for heresy throughout all Christendom. Rome was hunting Servetus and the Roman Catholic Inquisition in Lyons had already condemned him to death in absentia for this heresy.
Calvin had nothing to do with the city government in Geneva. Calvin was, after all, the philosophical founder of our current separation between church and state, as well as our representative form of government and its system of checks and balances.
Few men in history have contributed as much as Calvin did to the correct theological understanding of Scripture, society and human nature.
And few men have been so maligned for that effort.
Here's a wonderful thread from a few years ago I found on google - posted by Harleyd! Serendipity.
Calvin's dearest friend, Theodore Beza, said of him: "The thing to be wondered at is that a single man, as if he had been a kind of Christian Hercules, should have been able to subdue so many monsters, and this by that mightiest of all clubs, the Word of God."
"If you look upon him as an unconverted person, in a state of enmity against God and His grace (a supposition which, without good evidence, you should be very unwilling to admit), he is a more proper object of your compassion than of your anger. Alas! 'he knows not what he does.' But you know who has made you to differ.If God, in His sovereign pleasure, had so appointed, you might have been as he is now, and he, instead of you, might have been set for the defence of the Gospel. You were both equally blind by nature.If you attend to this, you will not reproach or hate him, because the Lord has been pleased to open your eyes, and not his. Of all people who engage in controversy, we, who are called Calvinists, are most expressly bound by our own principles to the exercise of gentleness and moderation...Our part is not to strive but in meekness to instruct those who oppose, 'if peradventure God will give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth.'" -- John Newton, author of the hymn, "Amazing Grace."
Let’s just say I would take a wait and see attitude, my Anglican ancestors didn’t fare too well under Cromwell, but
they didn’t do too well under Mary either.
I am not going to debate the merits/demerits of Calvinism. I do not want to live in any country where I am told how I must worship. I pray it never happens.
I suspect they’d be too busy arguing over whether it was right to wish Calvin a “Happy 500th Birthday,” or just the kind of 500th birthday God predestined him to have.
What part of Christ’s teaching authorized his followers to burn “heretics”? How would the Edicts of Rome be binding on the Protestant Geneva?
Calvin said he intended to do what he could do bring about the death of Servetus:
“If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.”
“Calvin had nothing to do with the city government in Geneva. Calvin was, after all, the philosophical founder of our current separation between church and state, as well as our representative form of government and its system of checks and balances.”
Not when it was Calvin’s church and ideology.
Your revisionism isn’t a strong enough soap to wash the blood from Calvin’s hands either.
And the fact remains Calvin had no elected position in the government of Geneva. He wasn't even on the city council.
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