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Is Satan Bound Today?
BibleBB ^ | Mike Vlach

Posted on 11/14/2002 11:56:40 AM PST by xzins

An Analysis of the Amillennial Interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3.

1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time (Revelation 20:1-3).

One distinctive of amillennial theology is the belief that Satan is bound during this present age. This belief stems from an interpretation that sees the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 as being fulfilled today. The purpose of this work is examine the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 and address the question, "Is Satan bound today?" In doing this, our evaluation will include the following: 1) a brief definition of amillennialism; 2) a look at the amillennial approach to interpreting Revelation; 3) an explanation and analysis of the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3; and 4) some concluding thoughts.

DEFINITION OF AMILLENNIALISM

Amillennialism is the view that there will be no future reign of Christ on the earth for a thousand years.1 Instead, the thousand year reign of Christ mentioned six times in Revelation 20 is being fulfilled during the present age. According to amillennialists, the "thousand years" is not a literal thousand years but is figurative for "a very long period of indeterminate length." 2 Thus the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 describes the conditions of the present age between the two comings of Christ. During this period Satan is bound (Rev. 20:1-3) and Christ's Kingdom is being fulfilled (Rev. 20:4-6).3

THE AMILLENNIAL APPROACH TO INTERPRETING REVELATION

Before looking specifically at how amillennialists interpret Revelation 20:1-3, it is important to understand how they approach the Book of Revelation. Amillennialists base their interpretation of the Book of Revelation on a system of interpretation known as progressive parallelism. This interpretive system does not view the events of Revelation from a chronological or sequential perspective but, instead, sees the book as describing the church age from several parallel perspectives that run concurrently. 4 Anthony Hoekema, an amillennialist, describes progressive parallelism in the following manner:

According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ's first coming to the time of his second.5

Following the work of William Hendriksen,6 Hoekema believes there are seven sections of Revelation that describe the present age. These seven sections give a portrait of conditions on heaven and earth during this period between the two comings of Christ. These seven sections which run parallel to each other are chapters 1-3, 4-7, 8-11, 12-14, 15-16, 17-19 and 20-22. What is significant for our purposes is that amillennialists see Revelation 20:1 as taking the reader back to the beginning of the present age. As Hoekema states, "Revelation 20:1 takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era."7

Amillennialists, thus, do not see a chronological connection between the events of Revelation 19:11-21 that describe the second coming of Christ, and the millennial reign discussed in Revelation 20:1-6. As Hendriksen says, "Rev. 19:19ff. carried us to the very end of history, to the day of final judgment. With Rev. 20 we return to the beginning of our present dispensation."8 The amillennial view sees chapter nineteen as taking the reader up to the second coming, but the beginning of chapter twenty takes him back once again to the beginning of the present age. In other words, the events of Revelation 20:1-6 do not follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21.

THE AMILLENNIAL VIEW OF REVELATION 20:1-3

With the principle of progressive parallelism as his base, the amillennialist holds that the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 took place at Christ's first coming.9 This binding ushered in the millennial kingdom. As William Cox says,

Having bound Satan, our Lord ushered in the millennial kingdom of Revelation 20. This millennium commenced at the first advent and will end at the second coming, being replaced by the eternal state.10

Thus the present age is the millennium and one characteristic of this millennial period is that Satan is now bound. This binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3, according to the amillennialist, finds support in the Gospels, particularly Jesus' binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:29. As Hoekema states,

Is there any indication in the New Testament that Satan was bound at the time of the first coming of Christ? Indeed there is. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan, Jesus replied, "How can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?" (Mt. 12:29). 11

Hoekema also points out that the word used by Matthew (delta epsilon omega) to describe the binding of the strong man is the same word used in Revelation 20 to describe the binding of Satan.12 In addition to Matthew 12:29, amillennialists believe they have confirming exegetical support from Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32. In Luke 10, when the seventy disciples returned from their mission they said to Jesus, "'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'" And He said to them, 'I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning'" (Luke 10:17-18). According to Hoekema, "Jesus saw in the works his disciples were doing an indication that Satan's kingdom had just been dealt a crushing blow-that, in fact, a certain binding of Satan, a certain restriction of his power, had just taken place."13

John 12:31-32, another supporting text used by amillennialists states: "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Hoekema points out that the verb translated "cast out" (epsilon kappa beta alpha lambda lambda omega) is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3 when it says an angel "threw [ballo] him into the abyss." 14

What is the significance of this binding of Satan according the amillennial position? This binding has special reference to Satan's ability to deceive the nations during the present age. Because Satan is now bound, he is no longer able to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ. Before Christ's first coming, all the nations of the world, except Israel, were under the deception of Satan. Except for the occasional person, family or city that came into contact with God's people or His special revelation, Gentiles, as a whole, were shut out from salvation.15 With the coming of Christ, however, Jesus bound Satan, and in so doing, removed his ability to deceive the nations. This binding, though, did not mean a total removal of Satan's activity, for Satan is still active and able to do harm. As Cox says, "Satan now lives on probation until the second coming."16 But while he is bound, Satan is no longer able to prevent the spread of the Gospel nor is he able to destroy the Church. Also, according to amillennialists, the "abyss" to which Satan is assigned is not a place of final punishment but a figurative description of the way Satan's activities are being curbed during this age.17

Hoekema summarizes the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 by saying,

"We conclude, then, that the binding of Satan during the Gospel age means that, first, he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel, and second, he cannot gather all the enemies of Christ together to attack the church."18

AN ANALYSIS OF THE AMILLENNIAL INTERPRETATION OF REVELATION 20:1-3

Though amillennial scholars have clearly and logically laid out their case for the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3, there are serious hermeneutical, exegetical and theological difficulties with their interpretation of this text.

1) The approach to interpreting Revelation known as "progressive parallelism is highly suspect The first difficulty to be examined is hermeneutical and deals with the amillennial approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation. In order for the amillennial interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3 to be correct, the interpretive approach to Revelation known as "progressive parallelism" must also be accurate. Yet this approach which sees seven sections of Revelation running parallel to each other chronologically is largely unproven and appears arbitrary. As Hoekema admits, the approach of progressive parallelism, "is not without its difficulties."19

The claim that Revelation 20:1 "takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era,"20 does not seem warranted from the text. There certainly are no indicators within the text that the events of Revelation 20:1 take the reader back to the beginning of the present age. Nor are there textual indicators that the events of Revelation 20 should be separated chronologically from the events of Revelation 19:11-21. In fact, the opposite is the case. The events of Revelation 20 seem to follow naturally the events described in Revelation 19:11-21. If one did not have a theological presupposition that the millennium must be fulfilled in the present age, what indicators within the text would indicate that 20:1 takes the reader back to the beginning of the church era? A normal reading indicates that Christ appears from heaven (19:11-19), He destroys his enemies including the beast and the false prophet (19:20-21) and then He deals with Satan by binding him and casting him into the abyss (20:1-3). As Ladd says, "There is absolutely no hint of any recapitulation in chapter 20."21

That John uses the formula "and I saw" (kappa alpha iota  epsilon iota delta omicron nu) at the beginning of Revelation 20:1 also gives reason to believe that what he is describing is taking place in a chronological manner.22 Within Revelation 19-22, this expression is used eight times (19:11, 17, 19; 20:1, 4, 11, 12; 21:1). When John uses "and I saw," he seems to be describing events in that are happening in a chronological progression. Commenting on these eight uses of "and I saw" in this section, Thomas states,

The case favoring chronological sequence in the fulfillment of these scenes is very strong. Progression from Christ's return to the invitation to the birds of prey and from that invitation to the defeat of the beast is obvious. So is the progression from the binding of Satan to the Millennium and final defeat of Satan and from the final defeat to the new heaven and new earth with all this entails. The interpretation allowing for chronological arrangement of these eight scenes is one-sidedly strong. 23

A natural reading of the text indicates that the events of Revelation 20 follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21. It is also significant that Hoekema, himself, admits that a chronological reading of Revelation would naturally lead one to the conclusion that the millennium follows the second coming when he says, "If, then, one thinks of Revelation 20 as describing what follows chronologically after what is described in chapter 19, one would indeed conclude that the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 will come after the return of Christ.24

Herman Hoyt, when commenting on this statement by Hoekema, rightly stated, "This appears to be a fatal admission."25 And it is. Hoekema admits that a normal reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would not lead one to the amillennial position. In a sense, the amillennialist is asking the reader to disregard the plain meaning of the text for an assumption that has no exegetical warrant. As Hoyt says,

To the average person the effort to move the millennium to a place before the Second Coming of Christ is demanding the human mind to accede to something that does not appear on the face of the text. But even more than that, the effort to make seven divisions cover the same period of time (between the first and second comings) will meet with all sorts of confusion to establish its validity. At best this is a shaky foundation upon which to establish a firm doctrine of the millennium. 26

The hermeneutical foundation of amillennialism is, indeed, a shaky one. The seriousness of this must not be underestimated. For if the amillennialist is wrong on his approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation, his attempt at placing Satan's binding during the present age has suffered a major if not fatal blow.

2) The amillennial view does not adequately do justice to the language of Revelation 20:1-3 According to the amillennial view, Satan is unable to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ, but he is still active and able to do harm in this age. His activities, then, have not ceased but are limited.27 This, however, does not do justice to what is described in Revelation 20:1-3. According to the text, Satan is "bound" with a "great chain" (vv.1-2) and thrown into the "abyss" that is "shut" and "sealed" for a thousand years (v. 3). This abyss acts as a "prison" (v. 7) until the thousand years are completed. The acts of binding, throwing, shutting and sealing indicate that Satan's activities are completely finished. As Mounce states:

The elaborate measures taken to insure his [Satan's] custody are most easily understood as implying the complete cessation of his influence on earth (rather than a curbing of his activities)."28

Berkouwer, who himself is an amillennialist, admits that the standard amillennial explanation of this text does not do justice to what is described:

Those who interpret the millennium as already realized in the history of the church try to locate this binding in history. Naturally, such an effort is forced to relativize the dimensions of this binding, for it is impossible to find evidence for a radical elimination of Satan's power in that "realized millennium." . . . The necessary relativizing of John's description of Satan's bondage (remember that Revelation 20 speaks of a shut and sealed pit) is then explained by the claim that, although Satan is said to deceive the nations no more (vs. 3), this does not exclude satanic activity in Christendom or individual persons. I think it is pertinent to ask whether this sort of interpretation really does justice to the radical proportions of the binding of Satan-that he will not be freed from imprisonment for a thousand years. 29

The binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is set forth in strong terms that tell of the complete cessation of his activities. The amillennial view that Satan's binding is just a restriction or a "probation," as Cox has stated,30 does not hold up under exegetical scrutiny.

3) The amillennial view conflicts with the New Testament's depiction of Satan's activities in the present age The view that Satan is bound during this age contradicts multiple New Testament passages which show that Satan is presently active and involved in deception. He is "the god of this world [who] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is our adversary who "prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). In the church age he was able to fill the heart of Ananias (Acts 5:3) and "thwart" the work of God's ministers (1 Thess. 2:18). He is one for whom we must protect ourselves from by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-19). Satan's influence in this age is so great that John declared "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19). These passages do not depict a being who has been bound and shut up in a pit. As Grudem has rightly commented, "the theme of Satan's continual activity on earth throughout the church age, makes it extremely difficult to think that Satan has been thrown into the bottomless pit."31

What then of the amillennial argument that Matthew 12:29 teaches that Jesus bound Satan at His first coming? The answer is that this verse does not teach that Satan was bound at that time. What Jesus stated in Matthew 12:29 is that in order for kingdom conditions to exist on the earth, Satan must first be bound. He did not say that Satan was bound yet. As Toussaint says:

By this statement He [Jesus] previews John the Apostle's discussion in Revelation 20. Jesus does not say He has bound Satan or is even in the process of doing so. He simply sets the principle before the Pharisees. His works testify to His ability to bind Satan, and therefore they attest His power to establish the kingdom.32

Jesus' casting out of demons (Matt. 12:22-29) was evidence that He was the Messiah of Israel who could bring in the kingdom. His mastery over demons showed that He had the authority to bind Satan. But as the multiple New Testament texts have already affirmed, this binding did not take place at Christ's first coming. It will, though, at His second. What Jesus presented as principle in Matthew 12:29 will come to fulfillment in Revelation 20:1-3.

Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32 certainly tell of Christ's victory over Satan but these passages do not teach that Satan is bound during this age. No Christian denies that the work of Christ, especially his death on the cross, brought a crushing defeat to Satan, but the final outworking of that defeat awaits the second coming. That is why Paul could tell the believers at Rome that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" (Romans 16:20).

For the one contemplating the validity of amillennialism the question must be asked, Does the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 accurately describe Satan's condition today? An analysis of multiple scriptural texts along with the present world situation strongly indicates that the answer is No.

4) Satan's deceiving activities continue throughout most of the Book of Revelation According to amillennialists, Satan was bound at the beginning of the Church age and he no longer has the ability to deceive the nations during the present age. But within the main sections of Revelation itself, Satan is pictured as having an ongoing deceptive influence on the nations. If Satan is bound during this age and Revelation describes conditions during this present age, we should expect to see a cessation of his deceptive activities throughout the book. But the opposite is the case. Satan's deception is very strong throughout Revelation. Revelation 12:9, for instance, states that "Satan. . . deceives the whole world." This verse presents Satan as a present deceiver of the world, not one who is bound.33

Satan's deception is also evident in the authority he gives to the first beast (Rev. 13:2) and the second beast who "deceives those who dwell on the earth" (Rev. 13:14). Satan is certainly the energizer of political Babylon of whom it is said, "all the nations were deceived by your sorcery" (Revelation 18:23).

Satan's ability to deceive the nations throughout the Book of Revelation shows that he was not bound at the beginning of the present age. Grudem's note on the mentioned passages is well taken, "it seems more appropriate to say that Satan is now still deceiving the nations, but at the beginning of the millennium this deceptive influence will be removed."34

CONCLUSION

The amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 that Satan is bound during this age is not convincing and fails in several ways. Hermeneutically it fails in that its approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation is based on the flawed system of progressive parallelism. This system forces unnatural breaks in the text that a normal reading of Revelation does not allow. This is especially true with the awkward break between the millennial events of Revelation 20 and the account of the second coming in Revelation 19:11-21. Exegetically, the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 does not do justice to the language of the text. The binding described in this passage clearly depicts a complete cessation of Satan's activities-not just a limitation as amillennialists believe. Theologically, the view that Satan is bound today simply does not fit with the multiple New Testament texts that teach otherwise. Nor can the amillennial view be reconciled with the passages within Revelation itself that show Satan as carrying on deceptive activity. To answer the question posed in the title of this work, "Is Satan bound today?" The answer from the biblical evidence is clearly, No.


Footnotes

1. The prefix "a-" means "no." Amillennialism, therefore, means "no millennium."

2. Anthony Hoekema, "Amillennialism," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, Robert G. Clouse, ed. (Downers Grove: Inter Varsity, 1977), p. 161.

3. Among amillennial lists there are differences of opinion as to exactly what Christ's millennial reign specifically is. Augustine, Allis and Berkhof believed the millennial reign of Christ refers to the Church on earth. On the other hand, Warfield taught that Christ's kingdom involves deceased saints who are reigning with Christ from heaven.

4. This approach to Revelation can be traced to the African Donatist, Tyconius, a late fourth-century interpreter. Millennium based on a recapitulation method of interpretation. Using this principle Tyconius saw Revelation as containing several different visions that repeated basic themes throughout the book. Tyconius also interpreted the thousand years of Revelation 20:1-6 in nonliteral terms and understood the millennial period as referring to the present age. This recapitulation method was adopted by Augustine and has carried on through many Roman Catholic and Protestant interpreters. See Alan Johnson, "Reve lation,"Expositor's Bible Commentary, Frank E. Gaebelein, ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), v. 12, pp. 578-79.

5. Hoekena, pp. 156-57.

6. William Hendriksen, More Than Conquerors (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1940).

7. Hoekema, p. 160.

8. Hendriksen, p. 221.

9. Hendriksen defines what the amillennialist means by "first coming." "When we say 'the first coming' we have reference to all the events associated with it, from the incarnation to the coronation. We may say, therefore, that the binding of satan [sic], according to all these passages, begins with that first coming" Hendriksen, p.226.

10. William E. Cos, Amillennialism Today (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1966), p. 58.

11. Hoekema, p. 162.

12. Hoekema, pp. 162-63.

13. Hoekema, p. 163.

14. Hoekema, pp. 163-64.

15. Hoekema, p. 161.

16. Cox, p. 57.

17. Hoekema, p. 161.

18. Hoekema, p. 162.

19. Hoekema, p. 156.

20. Hoekema, p. 160.

21. George Eldon Ladd, "An Historical Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 190.

22. Harold W. Hoehner says, "Though these words are not as forceful a chronological order as 'after these things I saw' ( (meta tauta eidon; 4:1; 7:9; 15:5; 18:1) or 'after these things I heard' ( meta tauta ekousa, 19:1), they do show chronological progression." Harold W. Hoehner, "Evidence from Revelation 20," A case For Premillennialism: A New Consensus, Donald K. Campbell and Jeffrey L. Townsend, eds. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1992), pp. 247-48.

23. Robert. L. Thomas, Revelation 8-22: An Exegetical Commentary (Chicago: Moody, 1995), pp. 247-48.

24. Hoekema, p. 159.

25. Herman A. Hoyt, "A Dispensational Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 193.

26. Hoyt, p. 194.

27. As Cox says, "Satan's binding refers (in figurative language) to the limiting of his power." Cox, p. 59.

28. Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation (Grand Rapids: Eerchnans, 1977), p. 353. Grudem also adds, "More than a mere binding or restriction of activity is in view here. The imagery of throwing Satan into a pit and shutting it and sealing it over him gives a picture of total removal from influence on the earth." Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology

29. G.C.Berkouwer, The Return of Christ, Studies in Dogmatics (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1972), p. 305.

30. Cox, p. 57.

31. Grudem, p. 1118.

32. Stanley D. Toussaint, Behold the King: A Study of Matthew (Portland: Multnomah, 1981), p. 305.

33. The argument that the casting down of Satan in Revelation 12:9 is the same event as the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 breaks down for two reasons. First, in Revelation 12:9 Satan was thrown from heaven to the earth. But in Revelation 20:1-3 he is taken from the earth to the abyss. Second, in Revelation 12:9 Satan's activities, including his deception of the nations, continue, while in Revelation 20:1-3 his activities are completely stopped as he is shut up and sealed in the abyss.

34. Grudem, p. 1118.


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TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; devil; evil; lucifer; satan; thedoc
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To: xzins; Jean Chauvin
To: Jean Chauvin I was quoting OP who said the amount of time will be as God chooses. Did you understand that? 2271 posted on 12/13/2002 9:38 PM PST by xzins

FWIW, I actually *do* think that xzins is quoting me fairly and accurately on this point. I claim absolutely no date-setting foreknowledge as to how long the "Millenium of God's Patience" (II Peter 3) is going to last in terms of Earthly Years.

Neither should the Pre-Millennialist, of course. There is a delightful PreMillennial exposition of Revelation from AD 1850 which I could cite which, on par with Hal Lindsey, claimed "Mathematical Proof" that that Armageddon was right-around-the-corner (given that 200 million represented the whole Military Levy of the Earth at that time, AD 1850 -- i.e., Armageddon).

A hundred years later, Hal Lindsey modified the Argument somewhat, claiming that 200 million represented the whole Military Levy of China at that time (AD 1969).

Another Century, another century of PreMillenial date-setting.

The honest PreMillennial, like the honest Amillennial, admits that Christ's Return could theoretically be a Million years away. Unlike the snake-oil, date-setting Pop-Culture PreMillennialist, he admits that he honestly doesn't know.

2,281 posted on 12/13/2002 10:21:45 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
I agree that there is no telling how long before Christ returns.

I understood Jean to be asking me the amount of time between the 1st and 2nd resurrections....a different question for a premill than an amill. (Assuming Rev 20 rather than 1 Co 15, of course.)

If we make the 1st resurrection Christ's own (firstfruits), and the 2nd resurrection the time of Christ's return, then we are back to an indeterminate length per Christ's own words. No one knows the day or hour.
2,282 posted on 12/13/2002 10:27:17 PM PST by xzins
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To: xzins; Jean Chauvin
Posted by xzins to OrthodoxPresbyterian On Religion 12/13/2002 10:27 PM PST #2,282 of 2,282 I agree that there is no telling how long before Christ returns.... No one knows the day or hour.

I wasn't accusing you of being a "date-setter". I don't think that you are.

"I agree that there is no telling how long before Christ returns.... No one knows the day or hour." That's what I am saying. Both PreMillennialists and Amillennialists should be honest about this Fact.

Without ANY prejudice intended, that's all that I'm tryin' to say.

2,283 posted on 12/13/2002 11:02:43 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: DouglasKC; BibChr; the_doc; Jean Chauvin
He certainly does in every believer. But he doesn't yet rule the physical, worldy government that he is prophesized to rule. That should be painfully obvious by reading the newspapers. We live in Satans kingdom today...behind enemy lines so to speak: Eph 2:2 in which you once lived according to the ways of this present world and according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now active in those who are disobedient.

Ephesians chapter 2 is, of necessity, preceded and informed by the Testimony of the Patriarch Job.

That old devil Satan was under a particular Binding then.
And that old devil Satan is under a particular Binding NOW.

Is the Strong Man Satan PRESENTLY under the particular Binding of Matthew 12, and is the House of the Strong Man Satan currently being plundered, RIGHT NOW, of the Vessels therein??

Matthew chapter 12.
Revelation Chapter 20.

Scripture interprets Scripture.


he doesn't yet rule the physical, worldy government

Does the Risen Messiah presently Rule the absolute and total Physical Government of the Terrestrial World TODAY? Yes, or No?

Does the Risen Messiah presently Rule the absolute and total Physical Government of the Terrestrial World TODAY? Yes, or No?

Does the Risen Messiah presently Rule the absolute and total Physical Government of the Terrestrial World TODAY? Yes, or No?


Does the Risen Messiah presently Rule the absolute and total Physical Government of the Terrestrial World TODAY??


2,284 posted on 12/13/2002 11:27:15 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: editor-surveyor; the_doc; Jean Chauvin
At this point I think that you have proven to the lurkers that amillenialism is distinctly twisted and totally counter to God's word.

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

VICTORY IS OURS!!

You'se gotta a problem wit' dat?? (grin)

2,285 posted on 12/13/2002 11:32:06 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: editor-surveyor; the_doc; Jean Chauvin; CCWoody; RnMomof7
You are ready to claim victory before you've even engaged the enemy.

You are ready to claim victory before you've even engaged the enemy

IT
IS
FINISHED.

May it be, O Lord, even so unto me.

2,286 posted on 12/13/2002 11:44:24 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: editor-surveyor; xzins; fortheDeclaration
.......One More Time!

........'light-on'.....?

...."So then FAITH cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

(Romans 10:17)

........'light-on'......?

Delphi-Technique?

Matthew 7:6

........'light-on'......!

Maranatha!

2,287 posted on 12/14/2002 4:06:55 AM PST by maestro
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To: the_doc; xzins; Corin Stormhands; fortheDeclaration; Polycarp; patent; RnMomof7; ...
I am merely instrumental in driving people away from God

Couple that with this previous gem

And I happen to be a saint. Already. It is quite literally the greatest thing in the world. On the other hand, you are--to put it bluntly--Satanically screwed.

So lemme think this through - you are a "saint" that "drives" people "from" God, all the while be a "Christian"

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.

Thank you Jesus for finally making clear what we suspected all along

Merry Christmas all

Aside on a personal note, I am contending with a father in the family business who abuses similarly (and chronically). Without boring everyone with details - I ask you pray for him.....hard

2,288 posted on 12/14/2002 4:29:44 AM PST by Revelation 911
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; DouglasKC; BibChr; the_doc; Jean Chauvin; Starwind; nobdysfool
terrestrial, physical...yes or no

No.

2 Corinthians 4 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

If I'm misunderstanding your question, the please tell me more.

The premill must explain to others, however, the biblical doctrine of "already/not yet."

2,289 posted on 12/14/2002 5:21:22 AM PST by xzins
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To: xzins; Matchett-PI; CCWoody; Wrigley
You were attempting to point out that amillennialists believe that the "millennium" could be 10,000,000 years in duration.

Since amillennialists assign the "millennium" to the time between Christ's 1st COMING and Christ's 2nd COMING, then you are simply attempting to point out that amillennialists believe that there could be 10,000,000 years between Christ's 1st COMING and Christ's 2nd COMING

I, then, asked you what in Premillennial theology would ~necessarily~ require one to reject the possiblity that there might be 10,000,000 years between Christ's 1st COMING and Christ's 2nd COMING?

You responded by saying: "Now I understand you to be asking me a different question. You are asking me how long premills think the gap between the 1st and 2nd resurrections will be. "

I didn't ask you how long premill's think the gap between the 1st and 2nd resurrections will be.

My question was not concerning the "gap" between the 1st and 2nd resurrections (I thought the 1st and 2nd resurrections in Premillennial theology were allegedly 1000 years apart. Goodness, how many resurrections do you guys have?).

My question was not concerning a hypothetical "gap" between the 1st and 2nd resurrections. I question was not even pertaining to "What premil's think" the length of ~ANY~ gap would be.

I specifically asked you a question in response to your point that amil's believe there could be 10,000,000 years between Christ's 1st COMING and Christ's 2nd COMING.

The question was: "Is there something in Premillennial theology which would ~necessarily~ require one to reject the possiblity that there might be 10,000,000 years between Christ's 1st COMING and Christ's 2nd COMING?

I'm concerned with the gap between Christ's 1st COMING and Christ's 2nd COMING.

I'm not concered, at all, with the gap between the 1st and 2nd resurrections.

~AND~...I'm not concerned with "how long premil's think the gap" between Christ's 1st COMING and Christ's 2nd COMING will be.

I specifically asked you if anything in Premillennail theology would ~necessarily~ require one to reject the possiblity that there might be 10,000,000 years between Christ's 1st COMING and Christ's 2nd COMING will be?

If there is no objection, I want to know what your point was.

(And you wonder why we recommend reading comprehension classes to you! LOL)

Jean

2,290 posted on 12/14/2002 5:55:30 AM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; the_doc; CCWoody; jude24; RnMomof7; Jean Chauvin
Does the Risen Messiah presently Rule the absolute and total Physical Government of the Terrestrial World TODAY??

Absolutely. Eph. 1 also makes clear the significance of Christ's resurrection which is the beginning of his reign (Acts 2 makes clear this is when he sat down on David's throne)as it points out his absolute power in this age and the next. Vs 22 "and he put all things in subjection under his feet."

The premil defines satan's binding in Rev. 20 only in reference to the chain, key and pit which then are interpreted on the basis of their human speculation. A prisoner in jail is in a sense bound by the bars of his cell, but in essense he is bound by the law of the land under which he was convicted.

I challenged on premil on this thread to show the causal connection between the binding and loosing of satan and verses 4-6 and the reply I received is that there is no causal connection, there is only a conincidental relationship.

The premil presents satan as having absolute power, a loose canon that Christ can't do anything about.

Fact of the matter, satan is bound in reference to Christ. He alone with the absolute authority and power that can control satan.

One of the means Christ uses is the gospel. In Acts 26:18 Paul is sent to the gentiles "to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me (Christ)."

Rev 10:7 "...then is finished the mysery of God, according to the good tidings which he declared to his servants the prophets." (The word "finished" is from the same greek word [telew] the is used in Rev 20 in connection with the 1000 years.) God will accomplish his glorious purpose in Christ, which is what Rev. 20 sums up so powerfully.

Matter of fact - Rev. 20:4-6 define what the binding is about. There is a causal relationship between vs 3 and 4. Vs 1-3 see all the nations as spiritually dead as deceived by satan. His binding prevents him from deceiving the nations. The result is that some of the spiritually dead are seen sitting on thrones, living and reigning with Christ, the first and foremost resurrection. The rest of the dead (vs5) remain under satan's deception and have no spiritual life and are finally cast into the lake of fire to experience the second death. Those participating in the First Resurrection live and reign with Christ forever. This is God's final judgment about those who believe in Christ.

So vss 4-6 IMO, in defining satan's binding, make clear that not all are moved from under his binding. Some remain deceived and spiritually dead. His binding is not absolute.

I would point out that in the premil millennium, satan is not completely bound either, for unbelief, sin and death still exist and according to their view many at the end of the millennium are rebellious unbeievers who end up in the armies of satan in vss.7-8.

Premillennialism is a gross insult to the all powerful risen and reigning Christ for its central tenents are - the promise of land to national israel - and the power of satan in control of all things in this age. This is obviously a false gospel as scripture makes exceedingly clear that by the resurrection the man who hung on the cross has been given absolute power over all things. Romans 1:1-4

2,291 posted on 12/14/2002 6:01:03 AM PST by gdebrae
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Excellent post!
2,292 posted on 12/14/2002 6:30:40 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Revelation 911
If I offend you or people like you, it doesn't necessarily bother me. I have been kind enough to tell people the Truth.
2,293 posted on 12/14/2002 6:39:45 AM PST by the_doc
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To: xzins
Rn, you assume that the language of Rev 20 is highly symbolic. I don't.

I think it is literal.

God is certainly real. Angels are real. Satan is real. God's ability to imprison Satan is real.
What part do you think is not real?

KEY WORDS

~

~I Think~

You select a chapter from a symbolic book and choose to make THAT ONE a literal truth..

I ask again ..does not the wird of God indicate that a thousand years ~to the Lord~ as a day?

2,294 posted on 12/14/2002 6:41:25 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
I answered your question. You answer mine. What part of Rev 20 do you think is not literal? If you don't answer, then don't bother to respond. I'm not playing 20 questions with you.
2,295 posted on 12/14/2002 6:49:09 AM PST by xzins
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; editor-surveyor; gdebrae; RnMomof7; ReformedBeckite
You are dealing with a kind of unbelief in editor-surveyor, of course.

(Aside to editor-surveyor: You just need to start admitting that. But that means you need to start believing that you have a problem. And that's what repentance is.)

If editor-surveyor can't face what John 5:25-29 is explicitly saying--in explicitly ruling out the premillennial position--then nothing you say about the present glory of King Jesus will impress him. He won't even find it interesting. (See 2 Cor 3 and compare it with what Jonathan Edwards said about that passage.)

(Aside to editor-surveyor: Please go back to #2196. Trace that post back to my arguments concerning John 5:25-29. My arguments against the premill position are utterly rigorous.)

I'll be back later today.

2,296 posted on 12/14/2002 6:57:00 AM PST by the_doc
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To: xzins
I believe that Chapter 20 is symbolic truth ..do you believe there are literal chains? Is a thousand years as a day?
2,297 posted on 12/14/2002 7:56:02 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; editor-surveyor; BibChr
You snuck in 2 questions after answering one, Rn. LOL!

I don't believe Chap 20 is symbolic so that thousand years is not figurative. Yes, I believe the chains the Angel has in hand are real angel chains because I believe the angels are real.

Do you believe Angels are real?
2,298 posted on 12/14/2002 8:16:38 AM PST by xzins
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To: xzins
It is obvious you do not like the question..because if I am correct it calls the pre trib millenium into question

Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.


2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


2,299 posted on 12/14/2002 8:28:37 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
I answered your question.

Do you believe angels are real?
2,300 posted on 12/14/2002 8:38:49 AM PST by xzins
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