No Giuliani, No McCain

"Cult" is a defined term.

"A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader."

And the definition doesn't support your bigotry.

"Your source has been repeatedly proven to be a liar and a fraud with numerous cites, quotes and links posted on this thread."

I suggest enquiring minds might want to go to the following link for a throrough debunking of Mormonism.

http://www.secweb.org/index.aspx?action=viewAsset&id=367

Remember, if Romney wins, he will be responding to this sort of analysis for eight years. Wow, what a headache the Romneyphiles are wishing on all of us. Crystal seers, Jews as ancestors of the Indians, the missing Golden Tablets, magic underwear, getting your own planet as a God. What fun we will all have trying to explain all this. And when we are through with that, we can dredge up polygamy for fun.

By Kyle Gerkin, the atheist?

"By Kyle Gerkin, the atheist?"

Einstein was close to an atheist. I guess E=MC^2 is therefore invalid.

Besides, he's just recapping things that are demonstrable facts found in the Book of Mormon. Why don't you just tell us you believe Indians are a lost Jewish tribe that came over here in 600 BC. I need a laugh today.

You said -- "And the definition doesn't support your bigotry."

In case you haven't noticed, words have a list of definitions, to be taken according to the varying contexts. There is the context of the Jim Jones and David Koresch.

And the, there are the "cults" that are groups that follow certain trends, products and/or other ideas (they are not always negative or bad). Sometimes people say that something has a "cult following" (it could be a old or classic movie, for example).

And in that list -- there is the "cult" that is related to Christian doctrine, or "orthodoxy" -- the basic and core Christian beliefs.

This is Christian terminology related to doctrine and orthodoxy. You'll see that listed in definitions usually under "orthodox" or "unorthodox" in terms of religion.

In Christian seminaries, where they teach Apologetics, they will refer to these kinds of *cults* as "Christian cults" -- which means while they may want to be considered "Christian" or may even try to maintain that position -- they are *in fact* -- non-Christian.

These groups *depart* from the historic, core and basic Christianity. And hence -- they are *cults* by definition and Christian terminology and *teaching* in Christian seminaries and in dealing with "apologetics".

You're obviously not very versed in Christianity, I see.

Regards,
Star Traveler

From your link:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, like the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), declares allegiance to Jesus. Latter-day Saints and Presbyterians share use of the Bible as scripture, and members of both churches use common theological terms. Nevertheless, Mormonism is a new and emerging religious tradition distinct from the historic apostolic tradition of the Christian Church, of which Presbyterians are a part.

Latter-day Saints understand themselves to be separate from the continuous witness to Jesus Christ, from the apostles to the present, affirmed by churches of the "catholic" tradition.

Latter-day Saints and the historic churches view the canon of scriptures and interpret shared scriptures in radically different ways. They use the same words with dissimilar meanings. When the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints speaks of the Trinity, Christ's death and resurrection, and salvation, the theology and practices related to these set it apart from the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant churches.

It is the practice of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to receive on profession of faith those coming directly from a Mormon background and to administer baptism. Presbyterians do not invite officials of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to administer the Lord's Supper.

You said -- "I know and have known for more than 50 years what Methodists believe and what the tenets, of the faith I practice, are/were. But go right ahead...go look that up. Just makes sure to reader what its FOUNDERS believed; not what some of the hippy/dippy churches claim today."

I'm just following up here, because I accidently came across a reference to a news article that is relevent to what you spoke about.

AND, you know, this is all freely available and anyone who *really* wants to find out what the true historic, apostolic and core Christianity is -- can find it. There's *no shortage* of material in the Christian world.

Methodists Say LDS Doctrine Not Christian

Salt Lake Tribune, May 11, 2000

Delegates to the United Methodists' national convention meeting in Cleveland on
Wednesday said the LDS Church ''does not fit within the bounds of the historic,
apostolic tradition of Christian faith,'' and that Mormons who convert to
Methodism need to be re-baptized.

The convention approved a study document written by two Salt Lake City
ministers, the Rev. Brian Hare-Diggs of First United Methodist Church and the
Rev. Jennifer Hare-Diggs of Centenary United Methodist Church.

The nine-page paper, passed by the Methodist General Conference without floor
discussion, spells out theological differences between The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints and the United Methodist Church.

It says Mormonism has ''some radically differing doctrine on such matters of
belief as the nature and being of God; the nature, origin, and purpose of Jesus
Christ; and the nature and way of salvation.''

The Methodists said Mormonism incorporates a ''gendered, married and procreating
god'' with ''a body of flesh and bones,'' and has a theology that ''more closely
resembles a tri-theistic or possibly a polytheistic faith'' than monotheism --
worship of the one God.

The Methodists also objected that ''the Jesus of Mormonism is not co-eternal with
the Father and of one substance with the Father'' and that Mormons add other
scriptures to the Bible.

The Presbyterian Church (USA) and Southern Baptist Convention have issued
similar assessments of Mormon doctrine.

The United Methodist Church is the nation's third largest religious body, with
8.4 million members, while the Mormon church ranks seventh, with 5 million
members in the United States.

That should make it clear to a lot of people from a public source and some main Christian denominations.

I suppose this article is available for anyone who wants an original of it, from the newspaper involved. Or, you could also go do some research concerning the Methodist General Conference in the year 2000, to find that nine-page paper.

Regards,
Star Traveler

So this Means you would vote for a Clinton/obama ticket over a McCain/Giuliani ticket?

"You vote against McCain or Guiliani, you get Hellary, Breck Girl, or Obama/Osama. "

So what. They're all liberals anyway.

In a related article -- that once again, I stumbled across says the following (and it also mentions Methodists in that article, too)

Vatican Will Not Accept Mormon Baptisms

Los Angeles Times, July 20, 2001

The Roman Catholic Church declared Thursday that Mormon converts must be rebaptized, a setback to the Mormon Church's effort to characterize itself as a Christian denomination.

The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith declared that baptisms in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are "not the baptism that Christ instituted."

The ruling was a departure from the Catholic Church's usual practice of recognizing the baptisms of converts from most other churches. The Vatican held that the Mormon view of the nature of God was too different from Catholicism's.

It was the second time in as many years that a major Christian church had ruled that Mormon converts must be rebaptized. Last year, the United Methodist Church, the nation's second-largest Protestant denomination, took a similar stand.
[...]

Dan Wotherspoon, editor of Sunstone Magazine, an independent journal of Mormon life and issues published in Salt Lake City, said, "Clearly, the LDS church still has their work cut out for them in this effort to be known as a Christian church."

In Salt Lake City, Latter-day Saints spokesmen sought to minimize the importance of the Catholic decision, or its possible effect on efforts by the church to present itself as a Christian church.
[...]

In Rome, the Vatican congregation indicated that radically different theological views of God and Jesus Christ necessitated the rebaptism of Mormon converts.

The congregation said that the Catholic Church could not accept Mormon belief that "God the father had a wife, the Celestial Mother, with whom he procreated Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit."

Regards,
Star Traveler

You said -- "The fact is that you have already been proven wrong in your assertions - since Methodists do not teach that Mormonisn is a *cult* and other churches as well warn against such bigoted labeling."

I'm just following up with a couple of newspaper articles I stumbled across. That should make it apparent what Christian denominations think about the Mormon religion and that they are *not Christian* -- and by definition a *cult* ("Christian cult" as used in Christian terminology).

Vatican Will Not Accept Mormon Baptisms

Los Angeles Times, July 20, 2001

The Roman Catholic Church declared Thursday that Mormon converts must be rebaptized, a setback to the Mormon Church's effort to characterize itself as a Christian denomination.

The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith declared that baptisms in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are "not the baptism that Christ instituted."

The ruling was a departure from the Catholic Church's usual practice of recognizing the baptisms of converts from most other churches. The Vatican held that the Mormon view of the nature of God was too different from Catholicism's.

It was the second time in as many years that a major Christian church had ruled that Mormon converts must be rebaptized. Last year, the United Methodist Church, the nation's second-largest Protestant denomination, took a similar stand.
[...]

Dan Wotherspoon, editor of Sunstone Magazine, an independent journal of Mormon life and issues published in Salt Lake City, said, "Clearly, the LDS church still has their work cut out for them in this effort to be known as a Christian church."

In Salt Lake City, Latter-day Saints spokesmen sought to minimize the importance of the Catholic decision, or its possible effect on efforts by the church to present itself as a Christian church.
[...]

In Rome, the Vatican congregation indicated that radically different theological views of God and Jesus Christ necessitated the rebaptism of Mormon converts.

The congregation said that the Catholic Church could not accept Mormon belief that "God the father had a wife, the Celestial Mother, with whom he procreated Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit."

Methodists Say LDS Doctrine Not Christian

Salt Lake Tribune, May 11, 2000

Delegates to the United Methodists' national convention meeting in Cleveland on
Wednesday said the LDS Church ''does not fit within the bounds of the historic,
apostolic tradition of Christian faith,'' and that Mormons who convert to
Methodism need to be re-baptized.

The convention approved a study document written by two Salt Lake City
ministers, the Rev. Brian Hare-Diggs of First United Methodist Church and the
Rev. Jennifer Hare-Diggs of Centenary United Methodist Church.

The nine-page paper, passed by the Methodist General Conference without floor
discussion, spells out theological differences between The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints and the United Methodist Church.

It says Mormonism has ''some radically differing doctrine on such matters of
belief as the nature and being of God; the nature, origin, and purpose of Jesus
Christ; and the nature and way of salvation.''

The Methodists said Mormonism incorporates a ''gendered, married and procreating
god'' with ''a body of flesh and bones,'' and has a theology that ''more closely
resembles a tri-theistic or possibly a polytheistic faith'' than monotheism --
worship of the one God.

The Methodists also objected that ''the Jesus of Mormonism is not co-eternal with
the Father and of one substance with the Father'' and that Mormons add other
scriptures to the Bible.

The Presbyterian Church (USA) and Southern Baptist Convention have issued
similar assessments of Mormon doctrine.

The United Methodist Church is the nation's third largest religious body, with
8.4 million members, while the Mormon church ranks seventh, with 5 million
members in the United States.

Regards,
Star Traveler

If these people won't believe how nutty Mormonism is, let's go to the source Book of Mormon: (synopsis from Wikipedia)

After the sons of Lehi marry the daughters of Ishmael, a "ball of curious workmanship" is discovered at Lehi's tent door. Using the directors on the ball, they begin journeying eastward along the Red Sea. As they travel along the banks of the Red Sea, Nephi's steel bow breaks while hunting. Upon hearing the news, the entire camp begins to complain and speak against the Lord for their misfortune, including Lehi. Nephi builds a new bow and arrows out of wood, and then enquires of Lehi where to hunt. Humbled, Lehi repents and turns to the Lord, and Nephi is able to find food for the camp. Looking on the ball, they discovered a message that caused them to "fear and tremble exceedingly". The ball works by their faith. As long as they are faithful, it will lead them through the most fertile parts of the land. If they are not, it will not function properly and they will be left to their own devices.

Ishmael dies on their journey near a place called "Nahum". This is one of the few places listed in the Book of Mormon that relates to the Old World. In mourning, Ishmael's daughters complain against Lehi and Nephi, and desire to return to Jerusalem. Laman and Lemuel decide to kill Lehi and Nephi, but voice of the Lord speaks many words to them and chastises them severely, causing them to change their minds and repent.

Arriving in a place they call Bountiful, on the borders of the sea, they set up a camp. After many days, the voice of the Lord comes to Nephi and commands him to go up the mountain. Once on the mountain, the Lord instructs Nephi to build a ship, and describes how to build a ship and how to make the tools needed. Nephi returns to camp and begins working to build the ship. Laman and Lemuel see Nephi and mock him for trying to achieve an impossible task. Nephi lectures them about the strength of the Lord and how impossible things are possible when the Lord commands it. Being filled with the Spirit, he commands Laman and Lemuel not to touch him or they would die instantly. He also commands them to assist in building the ship. Laman and Lemuel repent again, and begin helping Nephi build the ship. The Lord commands Nephi to touch them, saying it will not kill them. He touches them, causing a shock, and they do not die. Laman and Lemuel proclaim to Nephi, "We know of a surety that the Lord is with thee".

After completing the ship, the voice of the Lord goes to Lehi and commands him to load his family and supplies on the ship. They depart on the ocean. Many days later, Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael begin partying, dancing, singing, and being rude. Nephi, fearing that the Lord would be angry with them, speaks to them. They get upset with Nephi and tie him up. The compass--the ball of curious workmanship--ceases to function, and they get caught in a terrible storm. At the pleading of their wives, and for fear of sinking, Laman and Lemuel release Nephi. Nephi prays, and the storm stops, leaving a great calm. Many days later, they arrive in the promised land, on the American continent.

Upon arriving in America, they begin building farms and raising livestock that they find native to the land. Nephi is commanded by the Lord to make the small and large plates of Nephi. On the small plates, he is to write the spiritual record of the people, and the more plain and precious parts. On the large plates, he writes the history of the people, including their genealogy.

The last parts of First Nephi contain some teachings from Nephi to his people concerning Jesus Christ. He quotes Isaiah chapters 48 and 49 from the Old Testament. He ends the first book showing how all the ancient prophets have testified of Christ, and how it is only through Christ that one can be redeemed from the fall of Adam and their sins.

so, there was a seer ball that lead a tribe of Israel who build a ship to America, and they have visions that include Jesus - presumably hundreds of years BC.

Oh, this will be years of entertainment explaining this craziness during a Romney presidency. Maybe they will make a movie like Travolta and the Scientologists did to flog this LOTR gibberish.

You said -- "I suggest enquiring minds might want to go to the following link for a throrough debunking of Mormonism."

Here are some links to Christian sites that deal with *cults* -- of which Mormonism is usually at the "top of the list". This is nothing new in Christian circles, even though it might be something "new" to people who are unfamiliar with Christianity.

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
http://www.carm.org/

Apologetics For Christians Ministry
http://www.afcministry.com/

Utah Lighthouse Ministry
http://www.utlm.org/
[the site from the great granddaughter of Brigham Young; extensive research]

Department of Christian Defense
http://christiandefense.org/index.html

The Department of Christian Defense page on Mormonism
http://christiandefense.org/mor_christians.htm

Christian Doctrine Grid
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/grid.htm

And also, a couple of newspaper articles about the position of other Christian denominations...

Methodists Say LDS Doctrine Not Christian

Salt Lake Tribune, May 11, 2000

Delegates to the United Methodists' national convention meeting in Cleveland on
Wednesday said the LDS Church ''does not fit within the bounds of the historic,
apostolic tradition of Christian faith,'' and that Mormons who convert to
Methodism need to be re-baptized.

The convention approved a study document written by two Salt Lake City
ministers, the Rev. Brian Hare-Diggs of First United Methodist Church and the
Rev. Jennifer Hare-Diggs of Centenary United Methodist Church.

The nine-page paper, passed by the Methodist General Conference without floor
discussion, spells out theological differences between The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints and the United Methodist Church.

It says Mormonism has ''some radically differing doctrine on such matters of
belief as the nature and being of God; the nature, origin, and purpose of Jesus
Christ; and the nature and way of salvation.''

The Methodists said Mormonism incorporates a ''gendered, married and procreating
god'' with ''a body of flesh and bones,'' and has a theology that ''more closely
resembles a tri-theistic or possibly a polytheistic faith'' than monotheism --
worship of the one God.

The Methodists also objected that ''the Jesus of Mormonism is not co-eternal with
the Father and of one substance with the Father'' and that Mormons add other
scriptures to the Bible.

The Presbyterian Church (USA) and Southern Baptist Convention have issued
similar assessments of Mormon doctrine.

The United Methodist Church is the nation's third largest religious body, with
8.4 million members, while the Mormon church ranks seventh, with 5 million
members in the United States.

Vatican Will Not Accept Mormon Baptisms

Los Angeles Times, July 20, 2001

The Roman Catholic Church declared Thursday that Mormon converts must be rebaptized, a setback to the Mormon Church's effort to characterize itself as a Christian denomination.

The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith declared that baptisms in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are "not the baptism that Christ instituted."

The ruling was a departure from the Catholic Church's usual practice of recognizing the baptisms of converts from most other churches. The Vatican held that the Mormon view of the nature of God was too different from Catholicism's.

It was the second time in as many years that a major Christian church had ruled that Mormon converts must be rebaptized. Last year, the United Methodist Church, the nation's second-largest Protestant denomination, took a similar stand.
[...]

Dan Wotherspoon, editor of Sunstone Magazine, an independent journal of Mormon life and issues published in Salt Lake City, said, "Clearly, the LDS church still has their work cut out for them in this effort to be known as a Christian church."

In Salt Lake City, Latter-day Saints spokesmen sought to minimize the importance of the Catholic decision, or its possible effect on efforts by the church to present itself as a Christian church.
[...]

In Rome, the Vatican congregation indicated that radically different theological views of God and Jesus Christ necessitated the rebaptism of Mormon converts.

The congregation said that the Catholic Church could not accept Mormon belief that "God the father had a wife, the Celestial Mother, with whom he procreated Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit."

Okay, I hope that helps...

Regards,
Star Traveler

Einstein was close to an atheist.

And what did he say about the LDS? You think Kyle Gerkin is a genious?

This is Christian terminology

You're long on sourceless assertions and short on cites.

From your link:

No "cult" accusation, but a repudiation of religious bigotry.

You said -- "Oh, this will be years of entertainment explaining this craziness during a Romney presidency. Maybe they will make a movie like Travolta and the Scientologists did to flog this LOTR gibberish."

Well, if he is a candidate, I definitely won't be voting for him. I'm not going to vote for an atheist, I'm not going to vote for a Communist, I'm not going to vote for a liberal and I'm not going to vote for a *cult* member (i.e., a "Christian cult"), either (not that he's all those, except the last point).

And while you said that some of their teachings are "nutty" -- I'm basically covering the aspects of the Mormon religion simply from the standpoint that they are *non-Christian* in their doctrines and beliefs (well-documented, too) and that this makes them a *cult* (in the terminology of Christian theology).

Regards,
Star Traveler

"Einstein was close to an atheist.
And what did he say about the LDS? You think Kyle Gerkin is a genious?"

Oh, touche, third grade debating tactics always impress me for their bravado. Don't address the multitude points that debunk Mormonism as the province of crystal gazers who believe the Indians are descended from Jews who built a boat in 600BC and used a magic ball to guide them to America. Instead, deflect attention to an author who is merely repeating information known to anyone who has investigated Mormon history.

Oh touche, touche. I am devastated by your intellect. Now if I could just find some of those buried golden tablets . . .

You said -- "You're long on sourceless assertions and short on cites."

"Cite it" yourself. It's too obvious to anyone who looks, except a blind person (or someone who is of the cult, itself).

The truth is out there for those who look... (especially Christian truth, one of the most talked about and documented topics on this planet and in the history of mankind).

Regards,
Star Traveler

Don't address the multitude points that debunk Mormonism

"God Isn't Worthy Of Worship If He Kills Innocent Children."--Kyle Gerkin, the atheist who's opinion you're touting