Posted on 12/15/2006 7:22:32 PM PST by FarRockaway
To: The Republican Party
I am a Christian conservative or social conservative. I am Pro-Life. I vote.
Rudy Giuliani is pro-gay, pro-gun control, and pro-abortion.
For these reasons and others, I state very firmly that I will not vote for Rudy Giuliani for President of the United States under any circumstances.
Senator John McCain has waffled on human cloning, has supported experimentation on human embryos, and has attacked prominent Christian clergy because of the, "evil influence that they exercise." John McCain has said of Pro-Life voters, on a public broadcast radio show, that they are, "otherwise intelligent people who say that that's the only issue that will determine their vote." McCain told the San Francisco Chronicle, "I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade."
For these reasons and others, I state very firmly that I will not vote for John McCain for President of the United States under any circumstances.
Sincerely,
You said -- "No, that's not the way it works in the adult world. *You* have made a degoratory claim about a religion and millions of people. And now *you* need to back it up. That's what honor is all about."
It works with me. There are many books out there. You just have to go to any source that says anything about cults and Christianity and you're going to get the information. It's that simple.
It's your problem if you don't want to get the material, not mine. You do the work. I'm not going to do it for you.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- ".it doesn't appear that the Presbyterians view Mormons as belonging to a cult."
It appears to me that they do. They stated in that online page that they do *not* consider them to be part of their tradition and understanding of Christianity. And they said they are a "new" religion. They don't consider them to be of the same understanding as them.
I think you need to read that closer than you are.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "Thanks for that! That is the claim that star traveler is making - that every single, solitary church and theologian states that Moromonisn is a cult. And so that is being shown to be a lie."
Once again, I already said that it related to "Christian churches" and never said "all churches (non-Christian included). That wouldn't make sense. And also, I said this is something you find with Evangelicals (when you asked for a group). And also, it pertains to the historic and traditional churches which affirm the core and essential beliefs of Christianity. These beliefs are the common denominator with all the Christian churches.
And so, yes, all Christian theologians (not non-Christian cults and non-Christian religions) recognize that the Mormon religion is *not* a Christian religion.
And that -- by definition in Christian terminology -- is a *cult*. That is any non-Christian group.
And so, if it is *derogatory* to say that a group (i.e., the Mormons) are a *non-Christian group* -- I guess you'll have to make that determination.
In any case -- it's the *absolute truth* that the Mormon religion is a *non-Christian religion*. That remains the fact of the matter.
Regards,
Star Traveler
I think everyone is gone
You said -- "Whether they are a "cult" or not....they are good Republicans we NEED THEM!!"
In political terms, for votes and for things that matter to Republicans, this would be true. I can say that this group is definitely more in line with Republicans than with Democrats.
But, even so, that does not make them a *Christian religion*. And for whomever that is going to make a difference (in knowing that) -- they *should* know it. It should be made clear. The Mormon beliefs should be made just as clear as the position of Christians should be made clear. Each should stand on their own merits and be open about what they believe.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "The fact is that you have already been proven wrong in your assertions - since Methodists do not teach that Mormonisn is a *cult* and other churches as well warn against such bigoted labeling."
I haven't seen that to be the case with Methodists. My understanding is that the Methodist adhere to the basic and core beliefs of Christianity and are *not* non-Christian.
And it's clear that the Mormon religion is a *non-Christian religion* -- so that puts them in two different camps -- one a Christian religioin -- and the other a *non-Christian* religion. That by itself -- is the *defintion* for a cult -- being a non-Christian religion.
You said -- "What I'm saying is - that you have been shown to be making false statements right here on this thread. And you need to deal with that as an adult. Correct me if I'm wrong - but making false statements is a pretty bad thing for a Christian to do, isn't it?"
As soon as I see any false statements that were made by me, I'll let you know. So far, I haven't seen any. I believe the Methodists to be a Christian religion. You can correct me if I'm wrong there. I'm pretty sure of that.
And I'm absolutely sure that the Mormon's are a *non-Christian religion* by what I've seen myself, by the definitions that they've given and the fact that they use several other *authorities* outside of the Bible. That already puts them in the *non-Christian* group.
So, I see nothing wrong at this point. If I come across something that I catch later on, I'll let you know.
And you've already seen that somone else already verified to you that I was right in that those of the Christian faith and the Christian churches do not consider Mormonism to be a Christian religion.
They're perfectly free to make up whatever religion they want. Hey..., I wouldn't begrudge someone making Donald Duck their leader -- if they wanted. But, they couldn't call themselves a "Christian religion" if they did. And neither can Mormonism call itself a Christian religion.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "Calling them a *cult* is over the top, imo. They've been around too long and there are too many of them :-)"
Again, you seem to ignore the fact that this term is a Christian term. I've said that countless times. Now, in a "non-Christian sense" one might think of a "Jim Jones cult" and put it in that category. That's a secular or "newspaper" definition -- if you will.
What I'm talking about has to do with theological and/or Christian terminology. Anything which is non-Christian -- is -- by definition, a "cult".
This is the meaning and defintion of it in Christian terms. And, as you know, any particular field of study will have its own definitions and understandings and what they mean. I've given that to you countless times, now.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "I would suggest that it is you who is being lazy here. And I would further suggest that the reason you don't back up your bigoted claims - is because you cannot. You are not capable of doing it."
It's like someone standing on a sandy beach and asking where the sand is. Or asking to be proven that the sky is blue. My answer is simply "Open your eyes" and you'll see it. It's that simple. The first book you come across with the subject of Cults and the Christian faith -- will have the answer for you. I don't even have to tell you what book because there are so many of them.
I did give you one book, but I don't know if you've had time to look at it yet. Have you looked at the core essential beliefs for Christianity contained in the Kingdom of the Cults. If not, take a look there first. That will give you all the start you need. It's a book that is used in seminaries and in their libraries. And just in case I haven't been understood thus far, I'm talking about *Christian* libraries, not Buddhist libraries. I thought I would make that clear since you seem to be tripping up on that issue.
And you said -- "So I do ask again - for you to provide evidence that *all* Christian Churches and *all* Christian theologians say that Mormonism is a *cult*."
The answer is get it yourself and read it yourself. I'm not going to do your work for you. Anyone who wants to know (and there are those who are reading and not saying anything) -- you'll find it in less than five seconds on doing searches with cult and christian doctrine. But, apparently some people are just too lazy to do that. All you others, have fun with your searches...
Regards,
Star Traveler
P.S. -- Did I tell you that the Mormon religion does *not* adhere to the core and essential Christian faith and that they do *not* regard the Bible as the true and authoritative and only source for sound Christian doctrine (i.e., they've got some additional "authoritative sources" they use, because they don't consider the "Bible" reliable)? I just wanted to make sure. Oh..., and did I say that the Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is Satan's brother? I didn't want to leave that out.
Now, did I say anything there -- that is not the truth? Just wondering...
You said -- "Anything else that you are sure to come up with, I will NOT believe."
And that's precisely why people have to do their own research. You see..., I've already come across that before and people say, "I won't accept this source or that source or this one or that one." They're all valid and authentic and used in seminaries for their studies and classes. It's just the ones who wish to "support" the cults don't wish to acknowledge the plain and simple truth.
And the plain and simple truth about Mormonism is that it is a non-Christian religion and the Christian churches recognize that. For those who do "step in the door" of Christians churches (apparently there are some talking here who never set foot in one) -- you do know that you've *never heard* taught that Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan. That would be a shocker if you ever did hear it, I'm sure (for those who do step foot in Christian churches).
This is what the Mormons teach. This is one so small and tiny things that it's insignificant against all the other non-Christian teachings that they have.
And Methodist (I'm pretty sure) along with Presbyterians -- both adhere to the basic and core Christian beliefs. The Mormon religion does not.
There is nothing here that has been false. If you ever get around to checking it out -- you'll find out exactly that -- BUT -- you'll have to find your own sources, because you obviously will not accept a single source of mine. AND, I'm absolutely confident that no matter what Christian source you come across -- whomever it is that is doing a study on cults and historic Christianity -- you *will find* Mormonism at the top of their cult list. You'll find that out *all by yourself* without any help from me.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "So you are unable to back up your claims? I thought as much when I read them. You have been making false statements on this site. And there are a lot of us that don't appreciate that."
No, I've got one better than that. It's that *you* can back up *my* claims and I don't even have to tell you, specifically, where to go to find it. That's how confident I am of how *widespread* this information is.
It's so widespread -- that if you do *any* research on "cults" and their relation to the historic and core Christian beliefs -- that you will find *exactly* what I've said.
And you'll prove it for me.
[for those who may be reading this on the side -- the same thing applies to you -- you can verify *every bit* of this information about Mormonism being a non-Christian cult -- without the *slightest* hint or intervention from me. That's how easy it is -- and will prove all these things to be true.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "And I am STILL waiting for you to tell me IF Judaism is a "cult" or not."
I thought I did answer that. I said that Jesus, Himself, practiced the Jewish religion and therefore He did not engage in cultic practices (by definition).
The "standard" we use (in the Christian church) is that whatever Jesus did forms a standard and can define things for us. Jesus was a practicing Jew. He did not engage in cultic practices. What Jesus did says all there is to know about it.
AND, in addition to that, the first "converts" were all practicing Jews.
What does that say for it?
After two thousand years, the Gentiles have surpassed the number of Jews, so the Gentiles don't know very much about the Jewish practices. But, those Gentiles who have accepted Christ (in the manner that the Bible instructs us), we recognize that Jesus will be coming back to His homeland -- Israel. And He will rule and reign over Israel and all the nations of the world, at that time. That's what all those who are looking for the Messiah, are waiting to see.
You also said -- "Also, I want to know how you know that you are three years older than a poster who has NOT posted any age. How OLD are YOU? :-)"
Well, you give me your age and I'll tell you to subtract or add a number of years for my age. How's that?
Otherwise, I could tell you I voted for Nixon.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "The word "CULT" is NOT a "Christian" word."
The word "cult" is definitely Christian terminology. There's no question about that. And it's terminology that has to do with the core essentials of the Christian faith and how other groups depart from that.
In terms of what the founders believed -- without even looking it up (which I'll look into) -- I could probably guess that they had the core Christian essentials *down pat* -- and that's my estimate before looking.
BUT, what I can say with absolute assurance is that the Mormon religion does *not* adhere to that core Christian faith and they even have *additional* extra-Biblical sources of authority -- which they deem as more accurate and to provide a *correction* for the Bible. So, those extra-Biblical sources override what the Bible says and creates doctrine that is dramatically opposed to these core Christian beliefs.
In terms of Christ being in a cult -- that would not be true *by definition* -- because *whatever* Christ does is a "standard" or mark of approval for Christians. Jesus was a Jew and He said that He came to fulfill the law and not to change the law. And that's what He did -- fulfill the law to its end -- and thereby put an end to the animal sacrifice by means of His own sacrifice on the Cross and for the forgiveness of all who would accept Him as their Savior.
So, no -- Jesus Christ was not in a cult and neither was His mother, nor His disciples. They all accepted Him as the Messiah who came to save Israel (and all the Gentiles) as the Law and the Prophets and the Writings *told* -- about Him. He said *He* was the one that the Scriptures foretold. No, they definitely were not in a cult.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "I think everyone is gone"
Boy..., it took me this long to get down to the end. That was a very long thread.... Whew!
Regards,
Star Traveler
"Rick Santorum -- The Winston Churchill of our time."
Now this is one I could and would support!
I vote in all primaries that we have. That's where I make my voice heard for the "Best" candidate.
In the final election I vote for the candidate that I feel will do the least damage to my issues.
Since I'm in NC I don't have much say in the presidential primary but I still go out and vote anyway.
Too many "My way or the highway" people out there. We see how that turned out this past election.
Nancee
I agree with you I want to see Rick Santorum on the ticket
He probably needs a good rest, but his country needs him!
Nancee
I too will never vote McCain or Rudy.
If a Dem is elected in '08, at least we could continue to build the party.
But if McCain or Rudy won, I believe the Republican Party would morph into this unrecognizable mish-mash of wishy-washy egocentric lib-accepting groups.
No thanks.
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