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To: Retain Mike; Dimensio
All natural macro processes (those happening at less than .3 times the speed of light) result in matter moving to ever greater levels of disorder.

Uh huh. Sure. You betcha. Then please explain how this order arose from disordered water vapor by macro processes at less than .3 times the speed of light:

More ordered forms of matter are only possible with large energy inputs, because so much is lost as entropy.

Actually, snowflakes (which are "more ordered forms of matter" than the water vapor from which they form) are easily formed when the vapor *LOSES* energy and cools; the process in no way requires "large energy inputs" as you assert.

I regret to inform you that you haven't a clue what in the hell you're talking about.

835 posted on 01/28/2006 1:34:57 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon; Retain Mike; Dimensio
Then please explain how this order arose from disordered water vapor by macro processes at less than .3 times the speed of light . . .

Better yet, please explain how such a formation can take place apart from intelligence or design. Rates, temperatures - all physical considerations - taken into account. The only reason anyone is able to apprehend and quantify this phenomenon is because it is intelligible. How can something even be intelligible if intelligent design has little or nothing to do with what is observed?

We call a snowflake "natural," but I hardly think it is because empirical science has "determined" it as such. Empirical science may assume it as such, but there are still mysteries involved in this familiar scenario.

The short answer may very well be that "God did it." The long answer is the one science is supposed to tell us all, namely, how. When it gets down to the quantum level it could very well be holy cats.

837 posted on 01/28/2006 1:55:06 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Ichneumon

Your idea that the snowflake is more complex is a value judgement. The water was water before and it is water afterwards. The snowflake is formed by hydrogen bonding. How you get to the double helix from methane is another matter.


1,161 posted on 01/29/2006 6:19:07 PM PST by Retain Mike
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