Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe
By the way, the reason it is not a work is because faith is not a work (Rom.4:4-5), so God can use it as means to obtain salvation.
What are you addressing?
We are not discussing the issue of wheather faith is a gift of God, but wheather or not it is by faith one is saved.
Eph.2:8-9 states that it is, that the grace of salvation is approbriated by faith and even if given as part of the grace, the faith procedes the (salvation) being an instrument to obtain it.
Grace is the plan of salvation (free) faith is how you accept the gift.
I see nowhere in the confession, regeneration preceding faith, but in point 8, accepting, receiving and resting upon Christ alone, which sounds like faith to me.
Hey, Dr.Eck, the Westminister confession wants you to use the sacraments to get stronger in the faith.
That is a Romanist concept.
No. The message has to be sent before you believe.
And if the message is sent, that Jesus Christ died for your sins and was resurrected into Glory for you who is now and always has been one of the sheep (Psalms 100:3), then you can do nothing else BUT believe.
As Scripture has told us time and again, dead men cannot do anything God-pleasing unless and until He rebirths us. Then we believe.
I expect that in a month you will be back proclaiming that faith is a sign that you have been regenerated and not an instrument to obtain that regeneration.
No contradiction there at all, ftd. But you can be sure I will not be proclaiming faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ as the refuseable, refundable, plastic ticket to heaven some see it as.
instrument to obtain
There's your error.
Faith is not our instrument to "obtain" anything. Faith is God's instrument which He employs to bestow grace and which identifies us as His sheep.
Not only are your prepositions screwed up, now you're mashing the verbs.
I've got to get out of here and you keep pulling me back in. 8~)
Sacraments enhance our beliefs and our lives, THEY DO NOT GIVE US GRACE.
Salvation is of the Lord alone, according to His ordained will from before the foundation of the world, based solely upon His good counsel and nothing within ourselves.
Or else it's salvation by the work of man, and not of God alone.
Rome/Geneva.
Monergism/synergism.
True. First you have to have the word God before you can hear it (Rom.10:14-15)
And if the message is sent, that Jesus Christ died for your sins and was resurrected into Glory for you who is now and always has been one of the sheep (Psalms 100:3), then you can do nothing else BUT believe.
Ok, that is correct but you must do something and that is believe.
As Scripture has told us time and again, dead men cannot do anything God-pleasing unless and until He rebirths us. Then we believe.
You see what I mean.
If faith is the instrument by which we are saved, then it must precede the rebirth since that is what happens when we are saved!
I expect that in a month you will be back proclaiming that faith is a sign that you have been regenerated and not an instrument to obtain that regeneration. No contradiction there at all, ftd. But you can be sure I will not be proclaiming faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ as the refuseable, refundable, plastic ticket to heaven some see it as There's your error. Faith is not our instrument to "obtain" anything. Faith is God's instrument which He employs to bestow grace and which identifies us as His sheep.
Faith is the man side of the salvation equation.
And if there is two sides to the equation,a Godward and a Manward side, then you do not have monergism.
You have man having to accept something.
Man is involved in the salvation event by accepting the free gift by means of faith.
It is all of Grace since faith is not a work.
Not only are your prepositions screwed up, now you're mashing the verbs.
No, as shown my prepositions are fine and so are my verbs, nouns, adverbs, and adjectives.
It is you who refuse to read the scriptures as they read and read something into them.
All the Calvinists I cited stated that man was involved in the salvation event, but it was not a work since faith is not a work, not because man is not doing something.
I'm not quite sure I agree with this article (I need to study this further) but here is something that would answer your question in light of Dr. E's statements and your questions from a Reform view.
They do!
How can they enhance your beliefs when it is God that gives you faith.
Salvation is of the Lord alone, according to His ordained will from before the foundation of the world, based solely upon His good counsel and nothing within ourselves. Or else it's salvation by the work of man, and not of God alone. Rome/Geneva. Monergism/synergism.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved-Bible.
P.S. faith is not a work. (Rom.4:4-5)
To bad he doesn't address the verse in Eph.2:8.
In fact, he only mentions one verse in the entire article.
Was it him or someone else that had to say that the event had to be simultaneous to get out the problem that I had raised, how can one be regenerated (no longer in Adam) and not be in Christ.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone is ever saved before they believe.
And Calvin, Gill and A.T.Robinson all agree that faith is how one approbriates the grace of salvation it is not the result of salvation.
Behave yourself.
Yup, you were right. Notice how he takes a morpheme of uncontextualized scripture and tries to place it within a syllogism of his own making (roughly speaking) to come up with a circular and question begging answer. I remember a similar discussion with the same poster over the temptation of Christ and the Trinity and... well, let's just say the syllogisms fell apart rather quickly.
The problem is, baptism is the duty of every Christian, but if they are not saved until they are baptised, then they are being baptised as an unsaved person, and only are saved after they come up out of the water. Most people's experience alone will tell them that this isn't the way it is. They were assured of their salvation BEFORE they were baptised. They were baptised in obedience to Christ's command, not in order to receive that which they already had the inward assurance that they possessed.
You're trying to make baptism a condition of salvation, when it is the sign of salvation already received. You think you know what those verses say, but you need to read them again, with a request to the Holy spirit to show you what they mean, which means you will have to let go of your preconceived idea, and let the Holy Spirit teach you.
For God to utilize His People in different ways is not partiality. To use me in a different manner than He uses you is showing no partiality to either one of us. He uses each of us to further His Plan. Each of us have different functions, different gifts, and different paths to follow, as He Wills. There is no pariaility in that.
An acusation of partiality in such things is actually the sin of jealousy on the part of the person accusing God of such, even hypothetically. And to make such an accusation against a Believer with whom you disagree doctrinally as a means of maligning his doctrine is being less than truthful. It is a false accusation, because as a Christian, you CAN'T believe such a thing of God and yet love Him. Therefore, you accuse another falsely of something that is within your own heart, and you are actually in a veiled way questioning his salvation.
Who are you that judges another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand. (Rom 14:4)
*sigh* What is with certain people that they can't manage to disagree with someone on the least issue without accusations of sin and heresy? Thank you, Harley, for not stooping to that, though I don't see that we're really disagreeing on anything.
All I said is that God does not issue out gifts and callings equally to all. "To whom much is given, much is expected" (Lk. 12:48) is meaningless if all are given equally. For that matter, you'll notice that not all received equal amounts in the parable of the talents.
Insofar as Harley has defined partiality, I don't have a disagreement with him. However, I would point out that the context of all the passages you cited was that God does not show partiality in regards to His condemnation of sin and His requirement for redemption--that is, the Jew does not get a special dispensation in that respect to the Gentile. That does not mean that He gifts and blesses all men exactly alike.
"For" does not mean simply 'in order to bring about;' it also means 'as a result of' or 'because of'. Hence it is quite grammatically sound to say that to be "baptized for the remission of sins" does not mean "baptized in order to obtain the remission of sins," but "baptized because of the remission of sins."
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:8-14.
Every page of Scripture declares salvation is of the Lord alone, ordained by Him "from the beginning."
Because we "receive the love of the truth," we are saved. Nowhere does it say because we choose to accept the truth we are saved.
"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." -- Romans 12:3
Every page of Scripture resonates with the same sound -- His will alone.
As for not receiving the love of the truth, that means responding to the truth as it is revealed to them (Jn.3, Rom.1)
Because, that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their foolish heart was darkened.
So the unbeliever knew God (the walking zombies have knowledge of God!) but they reject God and then a spirit of strong delusion is placed on them, God letting them run wild with their lusts.
Amazing what a little context and comparing scripture with scripture will do.
Finally, we are not discussing unconditional election, we are discussing what comes first Regeneration or faith.
Now, I believe one can still hold to monergism and unconditional election and have faith precede regeneration.
It is because the Calvinists have gotten cause and effect mixed up.
TULIP comes out of unconditional election, not the other way around.
If faith is irresistable, why can't a man believe first and then be regenerate?
In our system, the spiritualy dead need prevenient grace so they can make a decision, but in Calvinism, no decision is being made, only acceptance of the Gospel message, which, being the elect they cannot reject.
Now, the Calvinist will say, that the spiritually dead needs first to be 'born again'in order to understand the Gospel.
But why do the elect have to understand before he believes ( As some Church Father stated,I believe and thus I understand)
The elect are given faith when they hear the Gospel, and then become regenerate.
Understanding of the Gospel would come later (1Cor.2:14)
What arguments from purely a Calvinist point of few would negate that view?
The only reason that regeneration is given first is to make the person understand the Gospel,(Jn.3:3) but understanding the Gospel is really irrevelant for the elect since he is going to believe it anyway based on irresistable grace.
Even in TULIP,(in my opinion) one can at least have the correct order of salvation and still be monergistic.
2Pe. 'that none should perish'
As for Romans 12, please look at the context.
Is Paul speaking to the unsaved or saved?
He is speaking to the saved and exhorting them to the Christian walk (why the exhortation if God is doing all the work anyway)
All Christians do receive a measure of faith at the point of salvation and it is up to them to make it grow (2Pe.2:2,Heb.5).
So in your Christian walk, God makes all your choices for you, including the ones to sin?
Well, that will get you to hell. (Isa.64:6, Matt.5:20)
Do you Affirm, or Deny, that True Faith involves a Volitional Mental Action, initiated by a Decision of Will?
Any "Action" of any sort whatsoever is, by nature, a "Work" (an initiation of activity towards a specified purpose).
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.