Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe
Faith is a work in the sense of Lk 17:10 that of a servant.
We all will be judged by our works (done in faith by yielding to the Holy Spirit Rom.6:16) at the Judgement seat of Christ (Rom.14:10,2Cor.5:10)
Now, the Calvinists know that their progressive sanctification must entail some type of response/responsibility by the Christian (yield or don't yield) which means that the Calvinist must admit in terms of his Christian walk he is a synergist or God is responsible for his sinning when he does.
Now as for faith being used in two different ways, that is not uncommon in the Bible, since the word 'perfect' is also used in a number of ways depending on the all important context
***I never said there was different baptisms. Please show me where I said that. There is one baptism, and that is the water baptism of someone who believes the Word of God, repents of their sins, confesses Christ as the Son of God, and is baptized for the remission of their sins.***
Look, if there is only one baptism and one gospel, then why are you obsessed with the distinction between Old Covenant & New Covenant and why would it matter to the thief on the cross who never got a chance at that water baptism?
Christian.
Amen.
Yet, 'faith' is a work in a sense of what we told to do (Rom.6:16) as servants (Lk 17:10)not making God a debtor, but we are ourselves are in debt.(Rom.1:14)
Calvinists want to make God the only one 'doing' anything but the fact is, if that is the case, then their Christian walk (doing something) is all of God with no responsiblty on them to make any decisions (Rom.6:16, 1Thess.5:19, Eph.4:30), which would mean that it is God willing that they sin when they do sin.
Because people try to bring up things that happened before the New Covenant took effect and make them applicable today, which they are not. The water baptism that applies to the New Testament church, which is the church of today, was not in effect until Christ died on the cross and rose on the 3rd day. The thief on the cross argument against baptism in the church today is a baseless argument.
***For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine and heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. And they shall turn away from the truth and shall be turned unto fables (2Tim.4:3-4)***
You have it backwards, my Arminian friend:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Arminianism/AugustusToplady%20Arminianism.htm
If the joint verdict of Arminius himself, and of his English proselyte Hoord, will not turn the scale, let us add the testimony of a professed Jesuit, by way of making up full weight. When archbishop Laud's papers were examined, a letter was found among them, thus endorsed with that prelate's own hand: "March, 1628. A Jesuit's Letter, sent to the Rector at Bruxels, about the ensuing Parliament." The design of this letter was to give the Superior of the Jesuits, then resident at Brussels, an account of the posture of civil and ecclesiastical affairs in England; an extract from it I shall here subjoin: "Father Rector, let not the damp of astonishment seize upon your ardent and zealous soul, in apprehending the sodaine and unexpected calling of a Parliament. We have now many strings to our bow. We have planted that soveraigne drugge Arminianisme, which we hope will purge the Protestants from their heresie; and it flourisheth and beares fruit in due season. For the better prevention of the Puritanes, the Arminians have already locked up the Duke's (of Buckingham) eares; and we have those of our owne religion, which stand continually at the Duke's chamber, to see who goes in and out: we cannot be too circumspect and carefull in this regard. I am, at this time, transported with joy, to see how happily all instruments and means, as well great as lesser, co-operate unto our purposes. But, to return unto the maine fabricke:--OUR FOUNDATION IS ARMINIANISME. The Arminians and projectors, as it appeares in the premises, affect mutation. This we second and enforce by probable arguments."
Christian.
The money is in an account.
You have to go the bank to get the money.
No money is going to be sent to until you claim it.
The money is a gift not something you earned.
But to get the gift you have to go the bank and claim the money in your name.
Now, the money is in the bank.
It is still money even if you do not claim it.
I don't wish to sound "mean spirited". However, I have had a number of people in my life tell me you must be baptized to be saved. That is, quite frankly, hogwash. (no pun intended) That is not to minimize the importance of baptism but only to emphasize the total regeneration process.
The Bible list baptism before salvation in several of the verses because it was an important sacrament of the church and is a method to declare youself as a believer. But as I've illustrated with Cornelius, it is the filling of the Holy Spirit which saves you and this come before baptism. You are filled with the Holy Spirit the moment God regenerates you.
What the heck does bringing up Laud have to do with events going on today?
***Because people try to bring up things that happened before the New Covenant took effect and make them applicable today, which they are not. The water baptism that applies to the New Testament church, which is the church of today, was not in effect until Christ died on the cross and rose on the 3rd day. The thief on the cross argument against baptism in the church today is a baseless argument.***
So, how then did the thief have his sin washed away if there is only one baptism for the remission of sin?
And, if there is a difference between the New and Old Covenant, that difference aparently has no bearing on anything. You are the one who told me that there is only one gospel and one baptism.
Christian.
In Acts 2:38, Peter tells those at Pentecost that you will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit after you repent and are baptized. Cornelius received the Holy Spirit as a sign to the Jewish Christians that Gentiles could be saved as well. There are only two instances where the Holy Spirit manifests itself as it did with Cornelius, the other being when the apostles spoke at Pentecost. However, in all other conversion accounts in Acts, including Cornelius, baptism is mentioned.
I have a question I would like for you to answer. Can you be saved before you have your sins removed?
First, because as we have amply demonstrated from the Scriptures, God does not always (or even most of the time) focus on His eternal perspective. Therefore, to do so to the exclusion of the human perspective is not giving heed to the whole counsel of God.
Second, because we live in our time-bound perspective, and the Bible is meant to be a practical guide to life as much as or more than a "lofty" theological/philosophical text. It may be right for Hindus to focus on the "reality" of the Brahman (God) to the exclusion of the Maya ("illusion") of real life, but not for Christians. He has work for us to do in the real, temporal world.
Third, because focusing exclusively on the eternal viewpoint tends to lead to a fatalistic, "it is written," attitude in which we attempt to abdicate the responsibility that God has plainly laid on us for our own actions according to the Scripture. We were not elected to be the Frozen Chosen.
Fourth, because overemphasis of the eternal POV, unless tempered by the understanding that God's predestination is always predicated on His foreknowlege rather than the other way around, inevitably leads to the logical conclusion that God is the Author of sin--a clear slander of His character.
Balance, my friend, is key to studying the Scriptures. To take any one facet of God's counsel and declare it to be the whole of the jewel of His wisdom is nothing but human foolishness.
***No money is going to be sent to until you claim it.***
I don't need the money sent to me. It is already in the bank in my account. That IS what you told me.
And, if that is true, then it is already my money whether I go to the bank or not.
If it is not in my account, then what you are really telling me is that when Jesus hung on the cross he didn't hang on the cross for any one person in particular. He merely obtained a large sum of money. Wow, isn't that cold and impersonal.
Plus, it makes God out to be some kind of Publishers Clearinghouse sweepstakes coordinator where everyone wins and must come down and "claim" (your word) their prize. Talk about making the shed Grace of God tawdry and impersonal.
Christian.
I already answered these questions several times. Either you are ignoring my answers, or you are just trying to mess with me. I will say this one last time. Please pay attention this time. The thief on the cross was not under the same covenant that you and I are under, so how he was saved has no bearing on today. Simple enough for you? The one Gospel and one baptism are under the New covenant, so they dont apply to the old covenant, since that was done away with at the cross. Get it?
Print them out for those without a Bible .....
What was the purpose of Johns Baptism ?
Wait, so after a man is saved, we move from a monergism to a synergism?
Man is now performing God pleasing works?
As for your definition of total depravity, God is totally able to deal with the spiritually dead person and shed light into the soul so that the person can make a decision for or against Him.
Calvinists love 'circular reasoning' setting up Total Depravity because of unconditional election and then make it the basis for unconditional election.
If, however, we start with conditional election, then God is able to handle spiritual death, giving the spiritually dead person a will to respond to God's grace.(Jn.12:32)
***What the heck does bringing up Laud have to do with events going on today?***
From the pen of the Jesuit himself we know that Arminianism was sown into the Reformation specifically for the purpose of causing people to leave the Reformed doctrines and head back to Rome, whose foundation is Arminianism.
Just exactly as this verse proclaims:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
So, yes, if the verse applies, it applies to Arminians and not the other way around. When people return back to their true Protestant Reformed roots, they are coming home. Either we Reformers are right and you are out of touch with the truth or Rome is right and your spiritual progenitors await. In effect, Arminianism is an illegitimate child.
Christian.
Now, are you really this obtuse?
The money is not in your account, it is in an account with your name on it (lets say a swiss account).
The money yours but it is not a benefit to you until you claim it.
Plus, it makes God out to be some kind of Publishers Clearinghouse sweepstakes coordinator where everyone wins and must come down and "claim" (your word) their prize. Talk about making the shed Grace of God tawdry and impersonal.
No, God has made all men savable if they will accept the free offer of salvation, since the debt has been fully paid.
The reason they do not salvation is not because it is not available to them, but because they do not accept the free gift.
Christ tasted death for every man (Heb.2:9)
What outbreak of Calvinistic revival are you talking about?
John's baptism was of repentance, for the remission of sins. However, his baptism only was in effect until Christ died and His new covenant was established. This can be seen by the fact that Paul told those in Ephesus that had been baptized with John's baptism that they needed to be baptized in the name of Christ.
Matthew 28:18-20 -
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always,
[even] to the end of the age." Amen.
Mark 16:15-16 -
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:1-6 -
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God;
for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again,
he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb
and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Acts 2:36-41 -
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified,
both Lord and Christ."
37 Now when they heard [this,] they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles,
"Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for
the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our
God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them.]
Acts 22:12-16 -
12 "Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt [there,]
13 "came to me; and he stood and said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him.
14 "Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One,
and hear the voice of His mouth.
15 'For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.
16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
Romans 6:3-7 -
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the
dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be [in the likeness]
of [His] resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him,] that the body of sin might be done away with,
that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Galatians 3:26-27 -
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Colossians 2:9-12 -
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins
of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with [Him] through faith in the working of God,
who raised Him from the dead.
1 Peter 3:18-22 -
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah,
while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh,
but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having
been made subject to Him.
Try this:
Because of the father of humanity, Adam, we his children have inherited a defective nature such that we have no abilities on our own such that we can communicate with God or perform any unaided pleasing actions. Because of this, the Father sent the Son, incarnated with the man Jesus Christ, to not only provide the sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sins but also attain the merits necessary through his perfect obedience unto eternal life for those who possess a saving faith. Through the power of God, Jesus Christ was raised from the dead through the work of the Holy Spirit. It is only through a "resurrection of the dead" through the work of the Holy Spirit that man can be given a new spirit alive to God, shedding in part, in this life, his old Adamic nature, and being raised daily through the Holy Spirit into the person of the new Adam, Jesus Christ. This union of the Spirit of Christ with a soul can never be cut because Christ cannot deny Himself. As the parable of the sower shows, there are some who have a faith that is not planted in soil prepared by the Holy Spirit and it is a faith that is not lasting because it has not been planted and joined with the Spirit of Christ.
Does that help?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.