What Must I Do To Be Saved?

Worthynews.com ^ | July 11th, 1875 | D. L. Moody

[Buggman]

At the very least, I think we can say that throwing around the words "heretic" and "heretical" and like terms does nothing for furthering a loving discussion between us. All it does is put the user (in his or her own mind) on a moral high-horse.

Perhaps we should invoke another "Hitler rule."

[HarleyD]

"...which is fine - just understand, youve departed from Spurgeon who regarded Wesley quite fondly despite his theology"

Please tell me where I've done that? I've read Wesley's bibliography and happen to think fondly of him as well although I would take exception to his theology.

But at least now I know the definition of hyper calvinist-one who doesn't think well of Wesley. :O)

[Corin Stormhands]

You sure act like being an Arminian bothers you.

Not at all. And I'm a much better actor than that, thank you very much.

You also act like it bothers you when I refer to myself as a former Arminian.

It doesn't bother us. But you boast about it continually while at the same time to provide any evidence that you're not just blowing smoke.

It can only lead us to believe you're either making it up or really ashamed of where you were. If God indeed delivered you from such an awful place, why not rejoice over it?

Or admit you're exaggerating.

[Corin Stormhands]

At the very least, I think we can say that throwing around the words "heretic" and "heretical" and like terms does nothing for furthering a loving discussion between us.

Well, that was kinda my point. But I'm a professional smart-aleck, so maybe it wasn't clear. ;-)

[Revelation 911]

Perhaps we should invoke another "Hitler rule."

(rev plugging ears)

INCOMING...............

[Buggman]

But you boast about it continually while at the same time to provide any evidence that you're not just blowing smoke.

Have you ever noticed that people who came out of one belief system and into another have a presumed moral superiority? "Why, once I was in darkness the same as you, but now I see the light!"

If we're bugged by it, it's because we recognize the fatuousness of that particular claim.

[Corin Stormhands]

Well folks, it's been a joy, but I am off on a little pilgrimage. I may or may not have Internet access over the weekend.

xzins, I'll light a candle for you, you know where. ;-)

I should be back around by Sunday.

Do try to behave whilst I'm gone.

[Buggman]

Have a good trip, Corin. God bless.

[Revelation 911]

You know Harley - I have to apologize - youre no hyper Calvinist - But the discussion raises an interesting situation

Spurgeon: What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ, - the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor

Spurgeon: Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitfield and John Wesley. (C. H. Spurgeon's Autobiography, Vol. 1, p. 173, in "A Defence Of Calvinism," The Banner Of Truth Trust edition

how does this square with Galatians 1:8-9 ?

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

So- by looking at it Harley - youre no hyper.......But IMO - ya'all might want to give a second thought to spending time in a camp with someone so conflicted as to dis-regard Scripture to promote a "heretic" as a "Saint"

have a great day

Rev

[thePilgrim]

***It can only lead us to believe you're either making it up or really ashamed of where you were.***

He, if you want to think I'm a liar, then that is fine with me. It won't be any worse than what other Arminians have said about me on this forum

***If God indeed delivered you from such an awful place, why not rejoice over it?***

You know, there is a difference between rejoicing over being pulled from false theological beliefs and boasting that I am smarter than the Arminians, which is the false accusation you made against me.

Besides, the only time the subject of "boasting" comes up is when you Arminians start making that accusation.

Oh, well.

Christian.

[jude24]

Why this obsessive need to lump all non-Calvinists together?

Part of it is convenience. We all do it, tend to polarize things one way or another. You're either Republican or Democrat, no room for an in-between. But it would be folly indeed for me to say, "There's only two views, the conservative Republican view and the liberal Democrat view." It totally ignores that there are actually moderates on both sides of the aisle, center-right as well as center-left.

So it is here. There are shades of soteriology. There's extremes on either end, reperesented by open-knowledge on the one extreme and "neo-gnostic" hypercalvinism on the other. Both are equally heretical.

Just like it would be folly to lump a blue-collar steelworker in with the Birkenstock-wearing Deaniacs, and assume that they were the same sort of Democrats, so it would be utter lunacy to take the "Neeners," and lump them in the same mould as the Open Knowledge guys. They're radically different.

There are some here who need to learn that not everyone who disagrees with them is an Arminian or an heretic.

[Gamecock]

a little pilgrimage

A snake encased in Plexiglas make a fine souvenir.

[Gamecock]

Ooops,

I forget to wish you safe travels.....

[RnMomof7]

It never ceases to amaze me how you excel at missing the point.

It never ceases to amaze me that people think it is Calvinists that lack a sense of humor Corin ..... Unless it is slapstick you guys do not "get it"

[Gingersnap]

"Is that "Dutch Reformed?"

No. I'm one of those nose-bleed high church Continuing Anglicans. I hold to the teachings of the 39 Articles which make it clear that scripture is the only authority on salvation. My church believes that none are worthy, but some are saved by grace and that works are the fruit of the spirit but insufficient to merit salvation. Whew!

I called myself "slightly reformed" because to my Catholic friends I am pretty much in lock step with Calvin theologically but to some of my Reformed friends I am indulging in the wildest heights of popery liturgically. LOL!

I do think there is no faith without grace but that faith can manifest in its own sweet time. Hence the death bed conversion/battle field part of the question. Gave you more than you expected (or needed) I'll bet.

[The Grammarian]

It never ceases to amaze me that people think it is Calvinists that lack a sense of humor Corin

If "How about anti-Calvinists?" is your idea of a joke, then you prove our suspicions that you don't have a sense of humor. It's just plain not funny.

[RnMomof7]

Id have to say - speaking for myself, its more anti arrogance than anti Calvinism -

Well it is interesting arrogance never seems to be the topic of debate.. it is always election and predestination .

What I object to is the continual denigration of my soteriology by a large facet of a group of people belonging to the GRPL -

Rev, inspite of our friendship ( and yes to readers I consider Rev a neighbor and friend ) I have to say that this is disingenuous. 1st debate is not denigration and 2nd we get as good as we give. (And please note that the Grand Reformed Purge list is being continually purged,often for things that in our opinion others do without having a problem. )

Now - that said - once we get beyond that - Ive had pleasant conversations with many grpl - you included.

Ditto I have had good discussions with you and Corin and FTD , we have even stood together at times when we the gospel was being perverted or mocked.

This should never be "personal ". Soteriology has been debated since the Reformation, somehow the church has persevered

[jkl1122]

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

[jkl1122]

I believe in free will because that is what the Bible teaches. You said there are only two camps. Actually, that is not true. I am not Arminian because I don't believe everything the way that Arminius did. I believe how the Bible teaches, which is not exactly like Arminius or Calvin believed.

Your beliefs on baptism are not based on the teachings of the Bible. They are based on your pre-conceived ideas on Grace and salvation. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God and therefore is the only thing I need to teach me about God's Grace and salvation.

Baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). The Greek used in Acts 2:38 is identical to the Greek used in Matthew 26:28 ,where Christ says "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Obviously, you would not claim that the shedding of Christ's blood was not required for salvation. However, you claim that baptism is not required, even though the language has them doing the same thing. And please don't misunderstand what I am saying. When a penitent sinner is baptized, it isn't the water magically doing anything. It is the sinner's submission to the will of Christ that causes God's blood to be applied and to remove their sins. This is not my idea, this is what the Bible itself teaches.

[HarleyD]

I understand completely where Spurgeon is coming from. I read several short summaries of John Wesley autobiography and was also impressed with his commitment to our Lord Jesus. You won’t hear me bash John Wesley, the man. However, I don’t think I would have classified him as an apostle but that’s just me.

How does this square with Gal 1:8-9? The message of the cross is simple;

“if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;” Rom 10:9

I look at “another gospel” as anything outside this statement. Anyone who wants to add anything to this is preaching a different gospel. Many Arminians (if I’m permitted to used that term) would agree.

Where Spurgeon has issues is in “…the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification”. The scriptures says:

“Salvation belongs to the Lord” Psalms 3:8

Yet people treat it like they have a decision. For the moment forget all the doctrinal interpretations. Try to think outside the box that we don’t have free will to make that choice; that salvation is given to individuals by God. We don’t even ask for it. From this perspective wouldn’t it seem, as Spurgeon says, that people who say they make a choice to follow God are assisting in their own justification? While it has nothing to do with the message of the cross, it robs God of what He has done for us.

God redeems all sorts of people in all sorts of conditions; Sprugeon, Wesley, etc. But in His great love to rescue us He tolerates our insolences.