Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe
***Yes, we may differ in our soteriology, but what is it about the GRPLs that doesn't allow you to reference us without some derogatory terminology?***
I fail to see how the term Arminian is derogatory. Of course, if you wish to clean up the derogatory comments about people, why don't you clean up your own side first, then you will be free to take the mote out of your brother's eye.
Christian.
OP: On what grounds do the Heretical Arminians reject the Spirit-guided Councils of the Holy Reformation?
any clearer for ya harley ?
how was elk season woody ?
Because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Rom 10:9) (KJV)
Doesn't get any simpler than that, and that is the stumbling block for most people.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).
***But Pilgrim, if he wants to use it, he's got to go get it.***
Since when is Salvation something that you "use." Remember, this is your Arminian analogy for salvation. To be honest, the idea that one must use their salvation smacks on being highly irreverent.
Of course, the fact remains that, the man actually possesses the million whether or not he ever uses it. The Man is a millionaire. It is in the bank in his name under his account. In the same way, I am in possession of a certain salvation. I already have it.
I certainly don't have to take it out of the bank and parade it around for the whole world to see. That smacks on showmanship.
***Well, isn't that special.***
What was that you were just saying about deragotary things. Perhaps you presume to lecture your brethren about it, you might want to get yours under control first.
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
***as for the personal bank accounts - is it pertinent - or is there a need to boast ?***
Boast, no. The amount in the account is irrevelant. I wasn't speaking on that. I was speaking on the fact that I have some accounts which I haven't touched in a very long time. I can assure you that they are not large accounts. I was simply referring to the fact that I have them and nobody is under the delusion that the money in them is not mine because I haven't been around to ask for the money.
It simply appears that you Arminians just don't understand how bank accounts work. You seem to be under the impression that you actually have to withdraw money in order for you to be in lawful possession of it. This is simply not true.
Just admit it, your Arminian analogy is bad.
Christian.
OP recognizing, as I often have, that you far surpass me in debating skills, I'd have to ask some questions.
I do not find another reference to faith being a work. Is there another?
That said, I think we also need to recognize that other translations say "the work of your faith" which is a bit different than the "work of faith."
That also said, I look at the parallel construction of work of faith, labour of love and patience of hope. That is not the only time that Paul uses such a grouping.
1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
In the parallel construction there, if "faith" is a work, does that mean that "hope" and "charity" are also works?
Consider...
Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Are the fruits of the Spirit considered "works?"
And finally...
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Now granted, I have read (and I wish I could recall the source) that the proper construction of this sentence means that the "gift" refers to "grace" and not "faith." But it is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), that Calvinists believe that this verse means "faith" is the "gift."
Illuminate me.
Seriously.
You would be hard pressed to find a post where you have used it in any other manner.
But you knew that.
I was merely trying to help you understand ftd's analogy. Sorry if you don't get it.
For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt. But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. --Romans 4:3-5So either Paul didn't know what he was talking about and was self-contradictory, or else you guys don't understand Paul. I'm putting my money on the latter.For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. --Ephesians 2:8-9
The "work of faith" then is not faith itself as if it were a work, but the good works that come out of our faith, our labours of love. This is entirely consistent with the rest of Scripture:
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. --Ephesians 2:9If Calvinism is truly reduced to distorting faith to be a work, rather than faith being the fount from which all our good works flow, then it has truly given up even the pretense of being Biblical. Somehow, I doubt that's what John Calvin intended.Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself. But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you see how faith worked with his works, and by the works faith was made complete? --James 2:17-22
***You would be hard pressed to find a post where you have used it in any other manner.***
Look, I can't help it if you personally perceive the term Arminian in a negative light. I also can't help it if your personal soteriology is Arminian. Why would you be upset when people properly call you an Arminian?
Perhaps this is the real reason that you Arminians here have gone out of your way to try and identify with the name Calvinist.
Christian.
With all due respect I see nothing derogatory with OP's statement given the definition of heretic.
"one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine"
Clearly Arminius, as well as many on this board, reject some or all of the Westminster Confessions. Given the definition of heretic OP could have said, "...the dissenting Arminians who reject the...".
***I was merely trying to help you understand ftd's analogy. Sorry if you don't get it.***
Oh, I clearly understood it. The analogy is just plain wrong. If I have a million dollars in a bank then I am already a millionaire in possession of a million dollars.
I don't have to spend it or flaunt it. I don't have to walk the aisle of the bank and make a decision to recognize my million dollars with a teller begging and pleading with me to come and accept my million that is already in my account with my name on it.
I'm sorry if you simply don't understand how flawed the analogy is.
In the name of the Lord,
Christian.
I'm not. Never have been.
But you well know, your typical pattern is to say "you Arminians" and you well know that you mean that in a derogatory manner.
Just like your continued boasting about how you're smarter than Arminians and you know more about Arminianism and all the time you "spent in an Arminian church..."
Which for some reason you won't identify.
So get off your high horse. It's dead and starting to stink.
So what you're saying is that since you dissent from our accepted beliefs or doctrines you'll have no problems wearing the nickname "Heretic Harley."
Cool.
You sure act like being an Arminian bothers you.
You also act like it bothers you when I refer to myself as a former Arminian. You Arminians sure bring it up a bunch and you try to project your feelings and say that I am boasting. Are you afraid that we former Arminians are winning converts right and left?
Oh, well, I can't help you. It doesn't even bother me that it bothers you.
Christian.
which is fine - just understand, youve departed from Spurgeon who regarded Wesley quite fondly despite his theology
That departure would then classify you in a position of above and beyond how historical calvinism has veiwed arminianism
plainly said - youre a hyper calvinist
have a great day harley
Rev
I received the advertisement. My wife took our library copy back. Neither of us could finish it.
No dice, bud....an hortatory list to CHRISTIANS in which the Apostle affirms CHRISTIAN efforts in the post-salvation lives on behalf of the Kingdom of God. This is evidenced by the scriptural context of this verse: 6And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost. 7So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
Romans 4:5 on the other hand is specifically referring to the means by which one COMES (pre-Believer) to justification. It is NOT by works but is by faith. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Simple question: Is Abraham the grammatical SUBJECT of the sentence?
No dice, bud....an hortatory list to CHRISTIANS in which the Apostle affirms CHRISTIAN efforts in the post-salvation lives on behalf of the Kingdom of God. This is evidenced by the scriptural context of this verse: 6And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost. 7So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
Romans 4:5 on the other hand is specifically referring to the means by which one COMES (pre-Believer) to justification. It is NOT by works but is by faith. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Simple question: Is Abraham the grammatical SUBJECT of the sentence?
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