Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe
Ah, but the man is a millionare whether or not he takes out a single penny. In fact, the bankers would call the funny farm on him if he walked into the bank and accepted his own money to become a millionare.
Come on, this isn't hard. In order for your analogy to be better, you would need to have the man walk into the bank and tell the teller that he is here for his promised million.
Of course, I'm guessing that the man will probably not get the response he wants.
And, you know what is really funny is that this Arminian analogy makes the man out to be a bank robber as he procures money that isn't his.
Later,
Christian.
It would be nice to know what Arminian denomination taught him all this strange stuff. Then we could go to their websites and find belief statements and articles and use those to refute it. But since he's only willing to admit that he learned all this stuff at an Arminian Church and that any Church which is not Calvinistic is, by default, Arminian, then we have no objective basis by which we can judge his statements.
For all we know he was into Scientology or Theosophy or EST.
Pietist-envy
Yes.
Yes the money is his but he has to do something to get it, he has to go the bank and withdraw it.
The money is in an account with his name on it, but he has to go and ask for it.
Until then the money remains unused and unclaimed and the man in question could be as poor as dirt.
Come on, this isn't hard. In order for your analogy to be better, you would need to have the man walk into the bank and tell the teller that he is here for his promised million.
Exactly! (DUH)
Of course, I'm guessing that the man will probably not get the response he wants.
why not if he has the account number?
And, you know what is really funny is that this Arminian analogy makes the man out to be a bank robber as he procures money that isn't his.
The money is in an account that he is given the number to.
Ever see the old show where someone was given a million dollars and the only requirement was that he could not tell anyone about it?
Well, here the only requirement is that you go the teller and give the account number.
The analogy makes too much sense.
Well maybe a little. She did look like Valarie Bertaneli (sp?)
It was uncalled for.
You bring up a good point PM, something I struggle with constantly. Calvinism is rather well documented and when we say someone is a Calvinist we can pretty well define what the beliefs are. There may be some minor differences over some of the finer points but for the most part we tend to be in agreement on the monergistic belief in salvation.
On the other hand, we Calvinists are constantly telling the other side their soteriology is mixed up. However it is difficult for us to know what that "other side" represents since we find this group represents Wesleyans, Pentecostals, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, non-denominational groups, Brethrens, Nazarenes, LDS, and who knows what else. We lump them together and call them “Arminians” but as you rightly pointed out, all these various groups don’t completely follow everything Arminius taught. The only thing these groups have in common is the free will concept.
The question becomes what should we call this miscellaneous group of synergistic Christians? If we called them the Synergistics that sound like a ‘60’s rock group. I would hesitate to call it the “Misfits” for fear of being banned. We could use your label of the Neeners but then most are not members of the Neeners. There is also the label, “Free Willers” but I’d be afraid that would be confused with the whale.
If you don’t think "Arminian" is an accurate title please help us Calvinists who are struggling for something that correctly identifies the soteriology. All of us reformers are happy to be called Calvinists. We only want your happiness.
Why this obsessive need to lump all non-Calvinists together? Do you not consider the neeners to be your brothers in Christ? Do you not consider us Christians?
Yes, we may differ in our soteriology, but what is it about the GRPLs that doesn't allow you to reference us without some derogatory terminology?
AFAIK, none of the neeners wear the label "Arminian" outside of FReeRepublic. Yes, we're all identified with our respective denominations, just as the GRPLs are.
But it's the GPRLs who claim the name of a man. It's the GRPLs that say "Calvinism is the gospel." It's the GRPLs that say "all Christians will be Calvinists in glory."
And quite frankly, that shows your weakness and your dependence upon a man-made theology.
You see, WE know the only name that will matter in glory is that of the Almighty, the King of Kings, the Lord of Hosts.
And, if my holiness background allowed me to bet, I'd put money on John Calvin saying exactly the same thing.
Actually it is not that hard.. there is little PURE Arminianism here.
There are Wesleyan /Arminians and there are the group like most baptists that are Cal-Arminians (OSAS Arminians)
But the foundation is the same...
How about the name "anti Calvinists" ... that is the thread that keeps the neeners together (Unlike the GRLP that is held together with doctrine )
It never ceases to amaze me how you excel at missing the point.
As a career military chaplain I ran across more denominations that I can remember. Most of them had some definite distinctives and were easy to tell apart. Others were similar and could have been combined and it would have made little difference. Major denominational groups had wide differences and because of that even required separate provisions for ministry.
For example, I was never puzzled about differences between the LDS and the Orthodox.
Perhaps your inability to distinguish these things explains your inability to adquately deal with other Christians on these pages. You might try attending some of these various groups so you begin to get a useful understanding of them.
Id have to say - speaking for myself, its more anti arrogance than anti Calvinism - I dont doubt my brothers and sisters belief in a risen Lord. What I object to is the continual denigration of my soteriology by a large facet of a group of people belonging to the GRPL -
Now - that said - once we get beyond that - Ive had pleasant conversations with many grpl - you included.
I didn't realize the term "Arminian" was derogatory. I do know Calvinist is used in a derisive manner here and elsewhere.
There is no obsessive need to lump groups together. It simply makes understanding where someone is coming from and talking about a particular perspective a lot easier. For example, I know a Presbyterian and a Reformed Southern Baptist are going to be closer together in their soteriology than a Free Will Baptist.
"And quite frankly, that shows your weakness and your dependence upon a man-made theology."
I prefer to think I'm following the original western HISTORIC view of church theology. The Eastern Orthodox follow the eastern historic view of church theology. I rarely get into discussions with the Eastern Orthodox because they have their reasons for why they think they're right and I have my reasons for why I think the early western view is correct.
But most do not understand this history-I didn't. Don't you think it's important to understand where this all comes from and if your faith is reasonably similar to those early Christians? I certainly did. If you don't want labels we could just say "the eastern viewers" and "the western viewers" but that's a bit clumsy.
BTW-With a few exception I have yet to read the works of Calvin.
"Do you not consider the neeners to be your brothers in Christ? Do you not consider us Christians?"
Trust me, if I didn't think so I wouldn't post as much to you guys. Without the Holy Spirit all these discussions would be meaningless. But wouldn't I be remiss if I didn't point out what I felt were errors in this doctrine just as the neeners posts to us?
"It's the GRPLs that say "all Christians will be Calvinists in glory.""
Hmmmm...I have to ponder that one. :O)
***Yes the money is his but he has to do something to get it, he has to go the bank and withdraw it.
The money is in an account with his name on it, but he has to go and ask for it.***
What do you mean he has to go and ask for it? It is in a bank with his name and account #. Everywhere in the entire world except the world of Arminianism, the million is already his and he is already a millionaire. He could leave the money untouched for his entire life and the only thing that will happen is that he will get these nice little monthly statements about his balance and what kind of interest he is getting.
Trust me, I have one of these bank accounts (several actually) and this is exactly what happens.
I fail to see how this analogy helps you at all. The only thing it actually demonstrates is a certain and limited Salvation of the elect. God deposits the money in their account and they are instantly solvent with God. They don't have to do anything other than enjoy the fact that God just made them millionaire.
If the man were to die and God were to take his "money" back because the man never went and asked for it would actually make God the criminal. Go and try it someday. Walk into a bank and take some money from an account that belongs to a stranger.
Do you actually have a real point with this analogy?
Christian.
Oh get over yourself Harley. The only way the GRPLs ever use "Arminian" is in a derogatory manner.
Where the GRPL problem is Harley is this lunacy that there's "Calvinists" and then "everybody else." It's just not that simple and you ALL know that (and yes, in this case "all" means "all").
BTW-With a few exception I have yet to read the works of Calvin.
Christianbooks.com has a sale on the Works of Wesley. You could buy them for me for my birthday. ;-)
(they're also running a special on The Purpose Driven Life)
But Pilgrim, if he wants to use it, he's got to go get it.
Trust me, I have one of these bank accounts (several actually) and this is exactly what happens.
Well, isn't that special.
That's not what Paul says. Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Thessalonians 1:2-5 ~~ Dr.Eckleburg
Excellent Verse, Dr. Eckleburg. Boo-yah.
The matter being thus Proved beyond Question by Scripture Alone, there remains to the Arminians little reason to deny the Spirit-Breathed Judgments of the Reformed Councils.
My Question remains:
Best, OP
It's difficult - after hearing so many un-truths about my theology, Im apt to pause when you begin statements with "trust me"
as for the personal bank accounts - is it pertinent - or is there a need to boast ?
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