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What Must I Do To Be Saved?
Worthynews.com ^ | July 11th, 1875 | D. L. Moody

Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe

Jesus Christ is calling you ...

What Must I Do To Be Saved?

Dwight Lyman Moody's Last Sermon in London. Preached in Camberwell Hall, Sunday Evening, July 11th, 1875.

Suppose you do not want to hear a sermon (on this last night) so much as you want to know how to be saved. I want, if I can, to answer that question, "What must I do to be saved?" There is no question that can come before us in this world that is so important; and I think that there is not a man in this audience to-night who does not feel interested in it.

I heard a man, when he was going out the other night, saying: "I do not believe in sudden conversion. I do not believe what the preacher said to-night, that a man could come in here a sinner, and go out a Christian." Now, I want to say that I do not believe in any other conversion. I do not believe that there ever has been a conversion in the world that was not instantaneous, and I want you to mark this: not but what many cannot tell the day nor the hour when they were converted. I will admit that: they may not know the time; but that does not change the great fact that there was a time when they passed from death unto life; that there was a time when they were born [ABCOG: begotten] into the kingdom of God. There must have been a minute when their name was written in the Book of Life. There must have been a time when they were ere lost, and a time when they were saved; but we may not be conscious when the change takes place. I believe the conversion of some is like the rising of the sun, and of others like the flashing of a meteor. But both are instantaneous, really, in the sight of God. There must be a time when life begins to rise; when the dead soul begins to live.

Now, this evening I want to take up some of the Bible illustrations. In the first place, there is the ark. There was a minute when Noah was outside of the ark, and another minute when he was inside. And, bear in mind, it was the ark that saved Noah: it was not his righteousness; it was not his feelings; it was not his tears; it was not his prayers. It was the ark that saved him. If he had tried to make an ark of his feelings, or of his prayers, or of his life, he would have been swept away: he would have been drowned with the rest. But, you see, it was the ark that saved him.

When I was in Manchester, I went into the gallery one Sunday night to have a talk with a few inquirers; and while I was talking, a business man came in, and took his seat on the outskirts of the audience. I think, at first, he had come merely to criticize, and that he was a little skeptical. At last I saw he was in tears. I turned to him, and said, " My friend, what is your difficulty?" "Well," he said, "Mr. Moody, the fact is, I cannot tell." I said, "Do you believe you are a sinner?" He said, "Yes; I know that." I said, "Christ is able to save you"; and I used one illustration after another, but he did not see it. At last I thought of the ark, and I said: "Was it Noah's feelings that saved him? Was it Noah's righteousness that saved him, or was it the ark?" "I see it, now," said he; "I see it." He got up and shook hands with me, and said: "Good-night: I must go. I have to go away by the train to-night; but I was determined to be saved before I went. I see it now."

A few days after, he came and touched me on the shoulder, and said, "Do you know me? " I said, "I know your face, but do not remember where I have seen you." He said, "Do you not remember the illustration of the ark? I said, " Yes." "It has been all light ever since," said he. "I understand it now. Christ is the Ark; He saves me; and I must get inside Him." When I went down to Manchester again, and talked to the young friends there, I found he was the brightest light among them.

Let me take another illustration. There was the blood in Goshen. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." Now He does not say, "When I see Moses' feelings, or the feelings of the people, I will pass over you"; or, "When I see you praying and weeping, I will pass over you"; but, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." It was the blood that saved them, not their righteousness. And a little child by that blood in Goshen was just as safe as Moses or Aaron or Joshua or Caleb. It was the blood that saved them. Look! there is the Jew taking the hyssop. He dips it in the blood, and strikes it on the doorpost. One minute it is not there: the next it is there. The moment the blood is there they are saved. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." Some people say, "If I were only as good as that minister I should feel so safe" or, "If I were only as good as that mother in Israel who has been praying fifty years for the poor and unfortunate, should I not feel very safe? " My friends, if you are behind the blood, you are as safe as any man or woman who has been praying for fifty years. It is not their righteousness and good works that are going to save them. They never saved any one. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." [ABCOG: Moody understands "pass over" to mean "bypass". It can also mean "hover over to protect"] And when I am sheltered behind the blood, then I am saved; and if I am not sheltered behind the blood, I am not saved. That was instantaneous, was not it? God says, "When I see the blood, it shall be a token, and I will not enter." Death came down and passed over Egypt; and where the blood was on the doorpost he passed by; but where the blood could not be found, in he went and took the victim away. The great palaces could not keep out death; wealth and position could not keep out death. He went and took the Crown Prince of Egypt; he took the richest and the poorest, the highest and the lowest. Death makes no distinction, except a man is behind the blood.

My friends, be wise to-night, and get behind the blood. The blood has been shed. The blood is on the mercy-seat; and while it is there you can be saved. God is imputing to His Son your trespasses and sins. He says, "I will look at the blood on the mercy-seat." Press in, my friends; make haste and get in tonight; for the Master of the house will rise up by-and-by and shut to the door, and then there will be no hope.

Take another case. When Israel went over Jordan, God told Joshua to have six cities of refuge; three on each side of Jordan. They were to be built on a hill, where they could be seen at a great distance, and the gates were to be kept open day and night. All obstacles were to be kept out of the way, the highway was to be kept in repair, the bridges and everything in good condition, so that nothing should hinder a poor man flying to the city of refuge. If a man killed another in those days, it was considered a great disgrace if the nearest relative did not take vengeance. "An eye for an eye, and a booth for a tooth." If a man killed another, the next kinsman was bound to put him to death. But if he could escape to a city of refuge he was tried, and if it was found he had not intentionally killed the man, he might live.

Now for my illustration. Suppose I have killed a man. I am out away in the woods working, and my axe slips out of my hand, and kills the man working with me. I know that his kinsman, his brother, is not far away. The news will soon reach him that I have killed his brother. What shall I do? I start for the city of refuge, over there away on the hill, ten miles off. I run - and we are told that in those days there used to be signposts with the word " Refuge," written in great red letters, so that a man might read as he ran; he need not stop. I have been told that there was a finger pointing towards the city, and a man who could not read might see the hand. A man does not have to learn to read before he can be saved. I see that hand; it is pointing to the city of refuge. The gate is wide open, but it is ten miles away. I leap over the highway. I do not look behind, to the right hand or to the left. I do not listen to this man or to that man, but, like John Bunyan, I put my fingers in my ears. The avenger has drawn his sword, and is on my track. I leap over into the highway; and, pretty soon, I can hear him behind me, Away I go, over that bridge, across that stream, up that mountain, along that valley, - but I can hear him coming nearer and nearer. There is the watchman; I can see him on the wall of the city. He gives notice to the inhabitants that a refugee is coming. I see the citizens on the wall of the city watching, and when I get near I hear them calling, "Run, run! Escape, escape! He is very near you! Run! escape!" I press on; leap through the gate of the city; and at last I am safe. One minute I am outside, and the next I am inside. One minute I am exposed to that sword; it may come down upon me at any minute: the next minute I am safe. Do I feel any difference? I feel I am behind the walls: that is the difference. It is a fact. There I am. The avenger can come up to the gates of the city, but he cannot come in. He cannot lay his sword upon me. The law of the land shields me now. I am under the protection of that city; I have saved my life; but I had no time for lingering.

A great many of you are trying to get into the city of refuge, and there are enemies trying to stop you, But do not listen to them. Your friends tell you to escape. Make haste! Delay not for a single moment!

In our country, before the war, when we had slavery, the slaves used to keep their eye on the north star. If a slave escaped to the Northern States, his old master could come and take him back into slavery. But there was another flag on American soil, and if they could only get under that flag they were for ever free. It is called the Union Jack. If they could only get as far north as Canada they were free; therefore they kept looking towards the north star. But they knew if they only got into the Northern States, there might be some one ready to take them back. So it is with every poor sinner who wants to come to Christ. Many men do all they can to hinder him; others will cheer him on. Let us help every man towards the north star. A man has escaped: perhaps he swims across the Mississippi river, or crosses the Ohio river in a little canoe. The master hears of it, and he takes his hounds and sets them on his track, and begins to hunt him down. The slave hears the hounds; and he knows that his master is coming to take him back to slavery. The line is a mile or two away. He escapes as fast as he can. He runs with all his might for the frontier, over hedges and ditches and rivers; away he goes for Canada. By-and-by he comes in sight of Canada. He can see that flag floating in front of him; and he knows that if he can only cross the line before his master and the hounds overtake him, he will be free for ever.

How the poor black man runs! leaping and bounding along; and at last, with one bound, he goes over the line. He is free! One minute he is a slave; the next minute he is a free man, under the flag of Queen Victoria, the British flag! (cheers [ABCOG: by British crowd]) - don't cheer, my friends, but come to Christ - and your laws say that no man under that flag shall be a slave. One minute he is a slave; the next minute he is a free man. One minute it is possible for his old master to drag him back; the next minute he shouts, "Free!"

If Christ tells us that we are free, we are free. My friends, Christ is calling to-night. Get out of the devil's territory as quick as you can. No slave in the Southern States had so hard a master as yours, nor so mean a master as Satan. Take my advice tonight, and escape for the liberty of your soul.

I can imagine some of you saying "I do not see how a man is really going to be converted all at once." Let me give you another illustration. Look down there. There are two soldiers. Now, if you bring those soldiers up to this platform, and ask them how they became soldiers, they will tell you this - that one moment they were citizens, and the next minute soldiers. What was it that made them soldiers? It was when they took the Queen's shilling. The moment they received that shilling they ceased to be citizens, and they became soldiers. Before they received that shilling they could go where they pleased; the next minute they came under the government and under the regulations of the army, and they must go where Queen Victoria sends them. They did not have to wait for the uniform. The minute they received the shilling they became soldiers. What made them soldiers? Receiving the shilling. What makes a man a Christian? Receiving Christ. "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not: but as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God."

Now, the gift of God is eternal life. Who will have the gift to-night? When I was down in Manchester I asked that question, and a man shouted in the meeting, "I will! " Who will have it now? Is not there some man here in London, as there was in Manchester, who will say that he will have the gift? Is it not a wonder to have to plead with so many to take the gift? "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life." Who will have the gift now? (Many responses of "I will"; "I will.")

I can imagine one man down there who says "How about repentance? How about getting into the ark or the city of refuge before repentance?" My friend, let me ask you what is repentance? It is right-about-face! I think these soldiers understand that expression. Some one has said that every one is born with his back to God, and that conversion turns him right round. If you want to be converted, and want to repent, I will tell you what you should do. Just get out of Satan's service, and get into the Lord's. Leave your old friends, and unite yourself with God's people.

In a few days, if nothing happens, I expect to go to Liverpool. If, when I am in the train, my friend Mr. Shipton says, "Moody, you are going in the wrong train, - that train is going to Edinburgh" - I should say, "Mr. Shipton, you have made a great mistake; somebody told me the train was going to Liverpool. You are wrong, Mr. Shipton; I am sure you are wrong." Then Mr. Shipton would say, "Moody, I have lived here forty years, and I know all about the trains. He must have been very ignorant or very vicious who told you that train goes to Liverpool." Mr. Shipton at last convinces me, and I get out of that train and get into the one going to Liverpool.

Repentance is getting out of one train and getting into the other. You are in the wrong train; you are in the broad path that takes you down to the pit of hell. Get out of it to-night. Right-about-face! Who will turn his feet towards God? "Turn ye, for why will ye die?" In the Old Testament the word is "turn." In the New Testament the word is "repent." "Turn ye, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" God does not want any man in this audience to perish, but He wants all to be saved. You can be saved now if you will.

There is another illustration I wish I had time to dwell upon and that is about looking. There is that serpent in the wilderness. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man also be lifted up, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Look here! Just give me your attention for a few minutes. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." How long does it take a man to believe? Or, if you will, how long does it take a man to look? Some people say they believe in educating people to be Christians. How long do you educate children to look? You hear the mother say, "Look," and the little child looks. It does not take a child three months to learn to look. Look and live! You need not go to college to learn how to look. There is not a child here but knows how to look. Christ says, "Look unto me; for I am [ABCOG: the way to] God, and there is none else."

There is the brazen serpent on the pole. God says to the children of Israel, who are dying of the bite of the fiery serpents - "Look, and live!"

Now, there is nothing in looking at a piece of brass which can cure the bite of a serpent. It is God who cures it, and the looking is the condition. It is obedience; and that is what God will have.

One moment the poor sufferer is dying; the next there comes a thrill of life through his veins, and he lives: he is well. My friends, look to Christ, and not to yourselves. That is what is the matter with a great many sinners; instead of looking to Christ, they are looking at the bite.

It is not looking to the wound; it is looking to the remedy. Christ is the remedy of sin. What you want is to look from the wound to the remedy - to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. Who will look tonight, and live? Turn your eye to Calvary; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.


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To: P-Marlowe

I was talking with a brother at chruch who told me of this site and so I asked him to send me a link... please do not hate him for it... LOL... I wish to respond to the post "What must we do to be saved" This is a saying that has a few biblical responses... I have been teaching the following for quite some time... I am not fully sure on how this forum works... Hopefully I have done this correctly... if not, feel free to instruct me on the correct way... so here is the post...



Eternal Salvation

The Answer to the Big Question
What must I do to be saved?

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And the answer to the question is...

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

We must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and be baptized... Please note that the underlined, believing in God with all his house is written after having been baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Was Mark wrong when he wrote the following?

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Many will teach that all one must do to be saved is simply to believe that Jesus Christ existed... but if we do nothing more then believe of his existence, we have done nothing more then Devils do, for it is written...

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

If you have not done more then the Devils, you will not be saved. Believing on the Lord Jesus means, believing on what he taught to be saved, and the answer to the question is... A good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ by being baptized... without baptism, we have had no response to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we have yet to be saved by his resurrection from the dead... Baptism is that answer of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ his son, baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. When we are baptized, we have a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, having answered the commandment to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus...

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This is the same Answer that those on Pentecost found for salvation, when they asked Peter and the rest of the Apostles, men and brethren what shall we do?

Act 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

And Peters answer to the question, what shall we do was??

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Those on the day of Pentecost who gladly received the words of Peter were baptized for the remission of their sins in the name of Jesus Christ, by the authority of Jesus Christ...

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

And God adds to the church daily, such as should be saved... this is how we know there is one church, because God does not add us to a church he has not authorized or given us... He only adds us to the church of his son Jesus Christ... all the saved are in the church of Christ and outside the church of Christ is no salvation... Jesus purchased his church with his own blood and it bears his name, the church of Christ... and his people are called by one name, not a thousand different names, just one, Christian... Think hard on this, did God add you to His church, or did you join a church made by man and accept a name not given by God?? If so, you are not in the church of Jesus Christ, because you have not obeyed the truth through the Spirit... The Lord adds to the church daily such as should be saved... those who have been baptized for the remission of their sins are added to his church and translated into his kingdom of his dear son, which is the church of his dear son, the church of Christ...

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

If you cannot consciously say you have been baptized into Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, into Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, then you cannot have a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ... then you must be baptized again correctly even as those at Ephesus, who did not answer it correctly and had to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus...

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

If we have not been baptized as Christ has said, our baptism is not by his authority, and rendered useless even as those at Ephesus were rendered worthless, until they obeyed the truth of the gospel... Peter says, being born again, not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible seed, by the word of God... If we are not baptized as God has set forth, then the seed was not from the word of God and any seed which is not his cannot produce the wheat it should, but produces tares...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

We have not obeyed the truth through which the Spirit has given us if we have not followed the instructions given by Him... our souls are purified when we obey the truth He gave us... God has given us explicit instructions on how to be saved, and even as those at Ephesus, if we have not obeyed the truth through the Spirit, we are not saved until we do... The Ephesians followed a teaching which was not by the authority of Jesus, when Jesus had died and given instruction unto his Apostles, they had followed a teaching that was in effect prior to Jesus being Crucified and resurrected, and it was no longer in effect... (John's baptism) so we must know exactly what Jesus said and instructed his Apostles to teach if we want our baptism to by the authority of Jesus Christ... Don't think just because you were baptized, that your baptism is any more correct then those of the Ephesians were until Paul taught them the truth and the authorized way of Jesus to be baptized...

The following is what you need to do to become saved... I pray that you will obey the truth through the Spirit... the consequences are separation from God for eternity in a place known as hell, and the lake of fire, the second death... Satan has waged a war with God, and has Lost already, he was defeated by Jesus Christ upon the cross at Calvary victorious over sin and death... and was resurrected from the dead by the Power of God and his blood is the atoning sacrifice that takes away our sins, if we will be baptized in his name, having faith in God to take away our sins in baptism... I pray you will take this teaching and learn of it and the ways of the Lord, that one day you will stand before God and his throne and not be condemned with the world, having Jesus Christ as your advocate and savior... God has done his part, now its time for you to do your part... either you love God and want to obey him, or you are the enemy of God and will perish in your sins and spend eternity in torments and eternal flame, its time to make your choice whom ye will serve... Winners win, and Losers Lose, God has won and Satan has lost... Will you choose life or death? What will your "ANSWER" be??




How to be saved from your sins...
God's Part:

God, in His infinite Love and Mercy, extended GRACE to man at the cross at Calvary. Jesus Christ, the sinless Lamb of God, was crucified shedding his blood for the sins of man, was buried, and rose again the third day victorious over sin and death!
(1Cor.15:1-4)

Man's Part:

1) To HEAR the gospel... So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(Rom. 10:17), Rom. 1:16)

2) To have FAITH ... which only comes by hearing the Word of God and without which it is impossible to please God
(Rom.10:17, Rom. 1:16, Eph.2:8-10, Heb.11:6)

3) To REPENT ... of (turn from) your sins
(Luke 13:3,5, Acts 2:38, 3:19, 2Cor. 7:10)

4) To CONFESS ... with your mouth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God
(Rom.10:9-10, Matt. 10:32, Luke 12:8, Acts 8:37)

5) To be BAPTIZED ... (immersed in water) into Jesus Christ to have your sins forgiven (washed away)by the blood of Christ
(Matt 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38, 8:35-39, 10:47-48, 22:16, Rom.6:3-7, 1Cor. 12:13, 15:29, Gal. 3:27, Eph. 4:5, 5:26, Col.2:11-13, 1Pet.3:20-21)

6) To CONTINUE in faith ... to live a faithful life in Christ and not allow yourself to be moved away from the hope of the Gospel
(Acts 14:22, Col.1:23, Rev. 3:5)



1,001 posted on 01/30/2005 11:16:44 PM PST by LivelyOracles
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To: GLENNS; Corin Stormhands; xzins
Whew! This is getting really wierd. It's almost like some bastardized Catholic Eucharist thing (with apologies to the Catholics). "Take a bite out of Christ and claim yer E-ternal RE-ward." Now, if we take this to its logical conclusion Christ must have some finite sum that the gospel is worth (1 mil x # of people ever born til the second coming). What happens to the unclaimed gospel "dollars"? I also find it interesting how the creature has a claim on the creator and not the other way around.

The only thing 'weird'is how Calvinists view the Atonement.

The Calvinist will admit that the Atonement is sufficent for all men. (So do the Arminians)

The Calvinist states that the Atonement is not applied to all men (As do the Arminian)

The Calvinist will even admit that there is a universal offer for salvation (as do the Arminians).

So where do the differences lie?

According to the Calvinist it lies in the intention,that God never intended to save all men (hence limited Atonement).

The Arminian never says that God intended to save all men,(although He wanted to save all men) but only that all men were to be made savable.

1,002 posted on 01/31/2005 3:33:06 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: thePilgrim; xzins; Corin Stormhands
***The command to be "perfect" is a legitimate command, but as you might guess, no being except God will ever attain to the perfection of God.*** Well, take your complaint up with fortheDeclaration. He is the one who thinks that it is unfair: "God never commands anything that we are unable to do, only unwilling." Perhaps you Arminians might ought to huddle up and figure out what is fair and what is not fair. Obviously, some of you think that, because God commanded it that man must be able to do it, in this case, be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. Of course, that is the very heart of Pelagius' error. He, too, thought that man followed Adam's example into sin and thought that man could obey God's commands, which is exactly what this belief of some of you Arminians leads to.

What we Arminians do is actually read the Bible.

You should try it once in a while, it would clear up alot of confusion in your mind (but maybe God has simply not decreed you to understand these truths, so it is really His fault-praise God)

Check the context out of the passage you cite.

The passage is dealing in context, with the Father's kindness not His sinlessness.

The word implies full development, growth into maturity of godliness, not sinless perfection. see Eph.4:12-13. (Scofield note-p.1001)

Imagine a Christian who could say that God could be dishonest!

What a 'faith'you guys have!

1,003 posted on 01/31/2005 3:39:58 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: HarleyD; xzins; Corin Stormhands
Verse 39 is speaking of security, and vs 40 of the Father's will of who should be saved. That is very clear from the scriptures themselves. With all due respects, verse 32-44 of John 6 talks about the will of the Father. Vs. 39 speaks of the security and vs 40 is speaking of the Fathers will.

This is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life, and I will raise him on the last day (that is referring back to vs.39)

So what part of vs.40 is confusing you or don't you just like the fact that it is too clear and knocks your Jn.6 proof texts right off the map?

”Joh 15:16 … he was speaking of the apostles he had chosen, which had nothing to do with salvation. “ Well, this is in the middle of one of Jesus’ most famous text; “I am the vine you are the vinedresser”. If Jesus was talking just to his apostles you might as well ripped John 15 out of your Bible. For that matter didn’t Jesus just talked to His disciples all the time? Sorry, this is a poor interpretation of scripture in my mind.

The part in which He had chosen them refers to them, that we understand that He is the vine, refers to us later, but does not change the immediate meaning of the verse, Christ is speaking to His apostles.

And ye shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning (vs.15:27)

”actually it says, ordained. And one is ordained to eternal life because God saw who would believe and who would not (1Pet.1:2)” Ordained like the other eight times this word is used in the New Testament: Mat_28:16, “Into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them”; that is, previously appointed - before his death; Luk_7:8, “For I also am a man set under authority”; appointed, or designated as a soldier, to be under the authority of another; Act_15:2, “They determined that Paul and Barnabas, etc., should go to Jerusalem”; Act_22:10, “It shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do”; Act_23:23, “And when they appointed him a day,” etc.: Rom_13:1, “the powers that be are ordained of God; 1Co_16:15? I’ve read several Arminians commentaries tonight on this verse trying to explain it away. Some say Luke used the wrong term here. Others said it was a poor choice of words. None of them did a very good job.

What Arminian commentaries do you have?

What is the problem?

Being ordained for something means that God foreknew who would believe and elected them in Christ.

No problem with that.

Well, you have given the typical calvinist proof-texts. Ignoring Jn.12:32 where it says that Christ will draw all men to him. Ignoring in Acts 17:30 that all men are commanded to repent. No, imagine Peter telling the Lord Jesus that God really didn't want all men to be saved (2Pet.3:9) and that in fact, God does take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek.33:11, Jonah 4) I think I have an easier time explaining these few verses then you’ll ever have explaining chapters (even books) of the Old Testament where God commanded the people to slaughter the inhabitants, God rained fire up cities, God flooded the earth, God sent plagues upon the people, and where God says: Zep 1:12 "It will come about at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And I will punish the men Who are stagnant in spirit, Who say in their hearts, 'The LORD will not do good or evil!' This is the "God of Love" that is identified in scripture. You focus on a part and ignore the whole. Doesn’t seem in my mind God wants all men saved since He didn't tell Joshua to go into the promise land and convert the heathens. Don’t you think He would do so if He really wanted it? It’s God’s sovereignty that the Arminians ignore.

Not at all.

We recognize that grace rejected results in condemnation and judgement (Jn.3:36)

God always gave ample time for repentence for those He had to destroy (Ezek.33:11) including Israel (which will be restored-Jer.31:31, Heb.8:8)

So, Arminians do not deny the wrath and justice of God, But believe according to the scriptures God is longsuffering and wants none to perish, and all to repent (2Pe.3:9, Acts.17:30) but it is men's will that rejects God, not God rejecting man (and ye would not-Matt.23:37)

1,004 posted on 01/31/2005 3:57:24 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: thePilgrim; xzins
Wherefore the law is holy , and the commandment holy and just and good (Rom.7:11)

The command for unregenerate man is to be saved (Jn.6:29, Acts.17:30) which he can do if he will accept the free gift of salvation (Jn.3:16)

The regenerate man (saved, born again) is told to 'walk by faith'and 'grow in the knowledge and wisdom of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ'(2Pe.3:18) and provides the filling and indwelling of the Holy Spirit do so (1Cor.3:16).

So, God never asks man to do anything man cannot do, but man fails because man will not do it.

Either at the point of salvation or at the point of spiritual growth.

1,005 posted on 01/31/2005 4:16:14 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: thePilgrim; xzins
Wrong. That is, unless you think that a man who was crippled and unable to get up was just being lazy. Still, we do record the Lord commanding the man to get up.

Yea, and the man got up!

LOL!

1,006 posted on 01/31/2005 4:20:12 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; Dr. Eckleburg
”So what part of vs.40 is confusing you or don't you just like the fact that it is too clear and knocks your Jn.6 proof texts right off the map?”

Confusing me?!? Pleazzzzze! Quite frankly for thirty years I’ve been confused by the book of John. Now the text couldn’t be more clearer. John 6 states quite plainly we are chosen by the Father and given to the Son. You’ve offered no intelligent scriptural defense of this passage or of John 15 (where you stated Jesus is “only talking to His disciples) from your perspective.

”Being ordained for something means that God foreknew who would believe and elected them in Christ. “

You still haven’t answered my question yet. If God foreknew who would believe then why did Christ die for everyone? Why does God bother sharing the message with everyone and not just those who He knows would believe? Or doesn’t God know?

So, Arminians do not deny the wrath and justice of God, But believe according to the scriptures God is longsuffering and wants none to perish, and all to repent (2Pe.3:9, Acts.17:30) but it is men's will that rejects God, not God rejecting man (and ye would not-Matt.23:37)

Could you provide the Biblical text of where God attempt to convert the Cannanites or, for that matter, the Egyptians during the time of Moses? And, of course at the risk of “pulling out the ol’ Calvinist Romans 9 card” that you’ve accused Dr. E of doing, who exactly are “the vessels of wrath” Paul writes about?

1,007 posted on 01/31/2005 4:38:03 AM PST by HarleyD (aka Codename: Heretic Harley-Ignorant Savage)
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To: nobdysfool

Do you think that the "perfection" the bible speaks of is of the same degree as that of the Father? I don't.

I don't think anyone will ever be as perfect as God is perfect.

If all things are to be brought under Him who is above all, then there is at least that area in which they have not attained unto the perfection of God.

Feel free to answer this off-line. I'm not interested in a debate.


1,008 posted on 01/31/2005 5:00:03 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: fortheDeclaration; GLENNS; Corin Stormhands; P-Marlowe

That is an excellent post, ftD!

Amen!


1,009 posted on 01/31/2005 5:09:58 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: LivelyOracles
Jesus purchased his church with his own blood and it bears his name, the church of Christ... and his people are called by one name, not a thousand different names, just one, Christian... Think hard on this, did God add you to His church, or did you join a church made by man and accept a name not given by God?? If so, you are not in the church of Jesus Christ, because you have not obeyed the truth through the Spirit... The Lord adds to the church daily such as should be saved... those who have been baptized for the remission of their sins are added to his church and translated into his kingdom of his dear son, which is the church of his dear son, the church of Christ...

Sorry but his name is not Christ, His title is Christ (Messias). His name was Yeshua or Joshua.

Are you a member of the Church of Yeshua?

1,010 posted on 01/31/2005 5:20:39 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: fortheDeclaration

***Yea, and the man got up!***

So, I take it that you believe that the man had the ability the whole time to rise up and walk.

In the service of the Lord,
Christian.


1,011 posted on 01/31/2005 5:50:29 AM PST by thePilgrim
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To: thePilgrim; fortheDeclaration
So, I take it that you believe that the man had the ability the whole time to rise up and walk.

No you don't.

1,012 posted on 01/31/2005 5:52:36 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: fortheDeclaration

***The passage is dealing in context, with the Father's kindness not His sinlessness.***

Yes, and reading your post, I can clearly see the the kindness of the Father in you towards me.

BTW, where did I actually give a context for the passage? Still, you accuse me of not reading the Bible. BTW, how can one have the kindness of the Father and still be full of sin?

You know, I actually pity you and the root of bitterness in you.

Christian.


1,013 posted on 01/31/2005 6:02:43 AM PST by thePilgrim
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To: fortheDeclaration; thePilgrim; xzins; Corin Stormhands
According to the Calvinist it lies in the intention,that God never intended to save all men (hence limited Atonement). The Arminian never says that God intended to save all men,(although He wanted to save all men) but only that all men were to be made savable.

That is an excellent post because it clearly points out that while the Calvinist certainly affirms the omnipotence and omniscience of God, the Arminian has a God who is unable to accomplish what He intended thus denying His Omnipotence. BTW, a Calvinist would also say that all men are potentially savable, that because of their humanness they possess the necessary attributes that would allow God to save them.

So what is so wierd about a God who can accomplish what He intended?

1,014 posted on 01/31/2005 7:05:14 AM PST by GLENNS
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To: GLENNS; fortheDeclaration; thePilgrim; xzins; P-Marlowe
That is an excellent post because it clearly points out that while the Calvinist certainly affirms the omnipotence and omniscience of God, the Arminian has a God who is unable to accomplish what He intended thus denying His Omnipotence.

No silly, it simply means that God wants all men to respond, but knows they won't.

BTW, a Calvinist would also say that all men are potentially savable, that because of their humanness they possess the necessary attributes that would allow God to save them.

Did you misspeak here? Human attributes "allow" God to save man?

Calvinism does not say all men are potentially savable. The non-elect were the non-elect from the foundation of the world.

They never had a chance. And, in Calvinism, they reject the gospel because that's what they were pre-programmed to do.

1,015 posted on 01/31/2005 7:15:17 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (One Iraqi purple finger took more courage than John Kerry's three purple hearts.)
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To: Corin Stormhands

LOL

My FRiend, I continually see your group grumping and whining about how the Calvinist faction on this forum twists and maligns your precious Arminian theology yet in what appears to be a vengeful rejoinder you engage in a similar incindary polemic.

If you have a serious question regarding the Calvinists view of anthropology then please rephrase your question. Thanks.


1,016 posted on 01/31/2005 7:31:40 AM PST by GLENNS
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To: GLENNS
My question was in regard to your choice of words. When you said "that because of their humanness they possess the necessary attributes that would allow God to save them" did you misspeak?

Maybe I'm misreading you here, but it would seem that a requirement for "human attributes" doesn't squire with "saved by grace alone."

Unless you're simply saying "humans are savable, labrador retrievers (however precious mine is) are not."

1,017 posted on 01/31/2005 7:41:05 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (One Iraqi purple finger took more courage than John Kerry's three purple hearts.)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Unless you're simply saying "humans are savable, labrador retrievers (however precious mine is) are not."

Yes, that's exactly it. To be human means to possess the necessary attributes that without which a being would no longer be human. Since it appears that we agree that only humans are savable then all humans are potentially savable because they possess the necessary attributes.

1,018 posted on 01/31/2005 8:16:35 AM PST by GLENNS
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To: GLENNS
Since it appears that we agree that only humans are savable then all humans are potentially savable because they possess the necessary attributes.

Well, then you get in that little sticky point about your theology that the non-elect, while admittedly human, are not potentially savable.

They were doomed from the get go.

Thanks for playing.

1,019 posted on 01/31/2005 8:30:05 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (One Iraqi purple finger took more courage than John Kerry's three purple hearts.)
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To: Corin Stormhands

Wow.

That's the best you can do?

And with a snide little comment, to boot.

You don't appear willing to engage some of your God-given attributes.

Shame.


1,020 posted on 01/31/2005 9:21:04 AM PST by GLENNS
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