Posted on 08/20/2004 5:43:21 AM PDT by TexConfederate1861
Darn... There's that word again.
Santa Anna surrendered to Houston fearing for his life if the citizenry of Texas (or any other revolting part of Mexico for that matter) got hold of him. Looks like it fits to me!
He'd already abdicated his throne and was a mere prisoner, unable to negotiate anything.
Ah, but his first was a forced abdication under duress since the allies had captured Paris, or so Lincoln would say. And, of course, he was restored for the hundred days on his return (and under a new constitution that he declared) and only abdicating again as he became surrounded by enemy forces (more duress, says the Lincoln!).
You must've slept your way through 7th grade.
There's also an "opinion" that the articles of confederation still secretly govern us, that there's a secret constitutional amendment out there that bars lawyers from holding office, and that the Republic of Texas never entered into annexation with the U.S. I don't suspect that you would advocate any of them though, nor do I suspect you will be clamoring for Napoleon's return to the throne anytime soon.
"Paranoids, kooks, crazies, and eccentrics do tend to gravitate to one another."
You won't have many friends very long if you keep talking that way about them.
Funny, I don't recall you ever making an effort to establish friendship with anybody. You did seek out this thread to post snide off-topic remarks about various confederate generals though.
The land was the Indians to begin with. Then Spain stole it. Then Mexico seceded from Spain. Then Texas seceded from Mexico. Then the US accepted Texas. Then Texas tried to secede from the US and failed. Now the Latinos are talking about Atzlan.
Whoever can take and hold the land owns it. Just ask Israel.
Welcome back, Walt.
Shouldn't you be directing that at Heyworth considering it was his comment to begin with? Or is your "novice" existence on FR giving you trouble?
Is this a new rule of treaties? Consider the Treaty of Paris (1783). It called for the following:
...his Brittanic Majesty shall with all convenient speed, and without causing any destruction, or carrying away any Negroes or other property of the American inhabitants, withdraw all his armies, garrisons, and fleets from the said United States, and from every post, place, and harbor within the same
And:
It is agreed that creditors on either side shall meet with no lawful impediment to the recovery of the full value in sterling money of all bona fide debts heretofore contracted.
The British violated the first one and the Americans the second. The Americans also continued to persecute loyalists after the war, something banned by the treaty. Does this mean that the Treaty of Paris never took effect?
Of course, the Treaty of Paris also said there should be perpetual peace between his Brittanic Majesty and the American states and that navigation of the Mississippi River shall forever remain free and open to the subjects of Great Britain. So much for "perpetual" and "forever".
Watch his position on Velasco develop. What it boils down to ultimately is denying that Texas ever legitimately won its independence. And don't doubt for a second that he will make a denial of that sort if it becomes necessary in holding up the reputation of Saint Abe. It's a sign of their fanatacism - these are the type of people who would deny Jesus for Lincoln.
Sorry, Gianni, I'm not Walt but I thank you for the welcome anyway.
ROFL! These Wlat types are all the same!
(BTW, I'm glad you're not Walt).
You keep using the word "prompt," but that doesn't appear anywhere in the treaty. "Immediate" does.
http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/treasures/republic/velasco-private-2.html
"Art. 5th The prompt return of Genl. Santa Anna to Vera Cruz being indispensable for the purpose of effecting his solemn engagements..."
The best line of course was this one, 'Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable,-- most sacred right--a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.' Decades later, such was only a fever-dream to Lincoln.
Was this some indication of his position? 'I suppose no one will say we should kill the people, or drive them out, or make slaves of them, or even confiscate their property.' Is that what he wanted? Starkmconstrast to his utterances of equality.
Lincoln also questioned the cost of the war, and the resulting profits, 'How then can we make much out of this part of the teritory? [sic] If the prossecution [sic] of the war has, in expenses, already equalled the better half of the country, how long it's future prosecution, will be in equalling, the less valuable half, is not a speculative, but a practical question, pressing closely upon us.' Always the Whig. Follow the money.
Lincoln then takes a shot at Gen. Scott, 'At it's beginning, Genl. Scott was, by this same President, driven into disfavor, if not disgrace, for intimating that peace could not be conquered in less than three or four months.' Guess what? Scott was right. Decades later, Lincoln asked his opinion and rejected it. Lincoln flip-floped like John F'n Kerry.
Yes...another proud addition to the WLAT Brigade.....
7th grade? I was in Bakersfield, CA, then. HS in Texas.
Sorry for the delay on the last part of this reply. I had to dig up an old book by Aurora Hunt, entitled The Army of the Pacific: 1860-1866, published in 1951, but recently reprinted.
Your contention that Lincoln "never ruled our state" is correct insofar as you mean the whole state. There were parts of Texas that were re-occupied by Union forces for most of the ACW. Hunt writes:
"The column from California is coming!" That was discouraging news for the retreating Texans, but welsome, indeed, to the commander of the Department of New Mexico, General Edward E. S. Canby, and his small force of Federal troops and Colorado and New mexico volunteers.
General Carleton's Californians were on their way, yet there were still many miles of rough marching between the Rio Grande and Tuscon where troops were then concentrating. Carefully Carleton planned theis last lap of his journey across the unsettled territory."
More information can be found in the War of the Rebellion, Offical Records. Here are some excepts regarding the retaking of the forts and posts along the Rio Grande in the Summer and Fall of 1862. The Confederate troops were forces all the way back to San Antonio.
[Inclosure I.] HEADQUARTERS DISTRICT OF ARIZONA, Las Cruses, N. Mex., August 15, 1865.
Brigadier General E. R. S. CANBY,
Commanding Department of New Mexico, Santa Fe, N. Mex.:
GENERAL: I wrote to you a letter from Ojo de la Vaca on the 2nd instant advising you of the strength of the forces under my command then en route to the Rio Grandle. Since then I have not received any letters from your headquarters advising me of the receipt of that communication. The inclosed general orders (Nos. 14 and 15, from these headquarters) will give you an idea of the force stationed at Mesilla. In Las Cruses there are four companies of the Fifth U. S. Infantry; at Fort Fillmore there are Shinn's light battery, Third U. S. Artillery; Companies A and E, First California Volunteer Infantry; Company B, Fifth California Volunteer Infantry, and Companies B and D, First California Volunteer Cavalry, and Company B, Second California Volunteer Cavalry. I places all the cavalry and nearly all the quartermaster's wagons and teams at Fort Fillmore on account of the good grazing in that vicinity and the abundance of mesquite beans now in tat neighborhood, which for the present precludes the necessity of purchasing much forage. As there are sufficient quarters at La Mesilla for the four companies of the Fifth U. S. Infantry I shall establish them in that town, unless otherwise directed by yourself, at least for the present. The emulation which will naturally spring up between them and the volunteers, as to who shall best perform their duties, will, in my opinion, be of great service to both; besides, there is a fine building there, where the supplies - quartermaster's and subsistence - can be kept free of expense, and the town of Mesilla is said to be a cooler and healthier locality than Las Cruses. Colonel Howe wrote to me desiring that I would send these four companies to Fort Craig, but this I do not feel authorized to do unless your order it. Mr. Woods the beef contractor, wrote me a note in relationto furnishing beef for my command. It is herewith inclosed,* together with my reply. I hope my desicion in this case will meet with your approval. I have not yet learned officially whether Mr. Woods will or not supply beef for only the four companies of regulars; I have heard that he would not. To-morrow I leave for Fort Bliss, in Texas, with Companies B, of the First, and B, of the Second, California Volunteer Cavalry. Company C, First California Volunteer Cavalry, is already at Hart's Mill, as you had doubtless heard previous to my arrival. There are many matters of moment which required my attention, as I have heard, in the neighorhood of Fort Bliss.
I am, general, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
JAMES H. CARLETON,
Brigadier-General, Commanding.
O.R. Ser I, Vol. L, pt. 1, pg 110-111
[Inclosure K.] GENERAL ORDERS,
HDQRS. COLUMN FROM CALIFORNIA, CAMP ON RIO GRANDE, Numbers 16.
Near Fort Quitman, Tex., August 22, 1865.
I. At 12 m. to-day Captain John C. Cremony, with his company (B, of the Second California Volunteer Cavalry), will proceed to Fort Quitman and hoist over it the national colors the old Stars and Stripes. By this act still another post comes under its rightful flag and once more becomes consecrated to the United States.
II. Captain Edmond D. Shirland, First California Volunteer Cavalry, will proceed without delay, yet by easy marches, to Fort Davis, Tex., and hoist over that post the national colors. If Captain Shirland finds any sick or wounded soldiers there he will make them prisoners of war, but put them upon their parole and let them proceed without delay to Texas. If they are unable to travel, captain Shirland will report to these headquarters by express what they need in the way of surgical or medical attention; what they need in the way of food or transportation, and all other essential facts connected with them which it may be necessary to have known to have them properly cared for. If the fort is abandoned, Captain Shirland will retrace his steps and report in person to these headquarters.
III. Twenty effective men will be ordered from Company B, First California Volunteer Cavalry toreport to Captain Shirland for detached service to Fort Davis, Tex.
By order of Brigadier-General Carleton;
BEN. C. CUTLER,
O.R. Ser I, Vol. L, pt. 1, pg 111
[Inclosure N.] HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT OF NEW MEXICO, Santa Fe., N. Mex., August 21, 1862.
Brigadier General JAMES H. CARLETON,
Commanding District of Arizona, Fort Bliss, Tex.:
GENERAL: The commanding general desires that you will arrange the affairs of your district so that the command may be turned over to the officer next in rank as soon as practicable, and hold yourself in readiness to repair to the headquarters of the department.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
GURDEN CHAPIN
O.R. Ser. I, Vol. L, pt. 1, pg. 113-114
[Inclosure Q.] HEADQUARTERS DISTRICT OF ARIZONA, Franklin (El Paso), Tex., September 1, 1862.
COMMANDER OF CONFEDERATE TROOPS, SAN ANTONIO, TEX.:
SIR: I found on my arrival here some twenty-odd such and wounded soldiers of the C. S. Army, whom I was ordered by General Canby, commanding the Department of New Mexico, to make prisoners of war. These men, at their earnest solicitation, I sent to San Antonio on their parole. They have been furnished with rations of subsistence for forty days and with such medicines and hospital stores as were necessary for them on the road. I have also furnished two wagons for the transportation of those who are unable to walk, and I have sent an escort of one lieutenant and twenty-five rank and file of the First California Volunteer Cavalry to guard them from attack by Mexicans or Indians until a sufficient force from your army is met, to whom they may be transferred, or until they reach some point near San Antonio, where from thence onward they can travel with safety. From that point the lieutenant is ordered to return with his party and all the means of transportation belonging to the United States with which he instructed for the use of his escort and benefit of these prisoners.
I have the honor to be, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
JAMES H. CARLETON,
Brigadier-General, U. S. Army, Commanding.
O.R. Ser. I, Vol. L, pt. 1, pg. 114
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