[Linda Liberty]

Since pre marital sex is widely considered wrong conduct

Obviously, I dispute that premarital sex is wrong conduct, and I dispute that it is widely considered wrong conduct.

Lets take the second point first. I think a majority of people under 25 don't even consider oral sex to be sex, much less immoral. And I don't think the notion that sex out of wedlock can be moral is restricted to young people. I would even bet that today a majority of senior citizens don't consider sex between senior citizens neither of whom is married to anybody to be immoral. So I think you are way out of touch with popular opinion.

More importantly, I don't think there is any reason to believe that sex out of wedlock is wrong. I think that an ideal life includes plenty of premarital sex. And I don't consider myself a hedonist, either. I think that people who marry as virgins have far more regrets on their deathbed than people who behave morally. Rules that may have been appropriate before condoms and penicilin and women in the work force are just outdated.

Let me guess: you are a teenager?

[Between the Lines]

Obviously, I dispute that premarital sex is wrong conduct, and I dispute that it is widely considered wrong conduct.

You are probably correct. What I should have said was that it was considered wrong conduct by people who consider themselves to have good moral values. But by your own words in another post ( "IMHO a happy and moral life includes children, which implies settling down by 30 or so,") you do not become moral until you have ceased your premarital activities.

I think a majority of people under 25 don't even consider oral sex to be sex, much less immoral.

First, the under 25ers are more moral than you may think. Most of them belive premarital sex is only right if you are in love.

Second, how can people who have not been taught morals know what morals are? Moral is moral just as blue is blue and just because someone does not think so does not make it a valid argument. You may say that blue is pink but the truth is that it is indeed blue.

Rules that may have been appropriate before condoms and penicilin and women in the work force are just outdated.

Life's truths are valid in any age regardless of feminism or promiscuous sex. If we ignore life's truths we only condemn ourselves to learn them all over again, the hard way.

Let me guess: you are a teenager?

I am 45 and married for 25 years to the same woman. I have 3 grown kids, two girls and one boy. We never forbade our children to have premarital sex because that would only assure that they would. Though my daughters did not remain chaste before marriage they only had sex with their future spouses. (No they did not lie to me.) My son on the other hand is a real horn dog, has not been married and has sex with many partners. Though he uses condoms five of those partners have claimed that he impregnated them. Of those only two turned out to be true. One got an abortion. Because of my son and his sex partner’s immaturity, my wife and I are raising our granddaughter. Don't tell me that premarital sex is moral or that there are no consequences.

[Servant of the Nine]

I think a majority of people under 25 don't even consider oral sex to be sex, much less immoral. And I don't think the notion that sex out of wedlock can be moral is restricted to young people. I would even bet that today a majority of senior citizens don't consider sex between senior citizens neither of whom is married to anybody to be immoral. So I think you are way out of touch with popular opinion.

Exactly
Did these people all miss the sixties and seventies?
Were you all the guys in the plaid shirts and pocket protectors who couldn't get a date to the senior prom, or their female counterparts?
Are there no Republican Party Reptiles on this site?

So9

[Restorer]

Just found this thread. Very interesting.

Just wanted to let you know that not everybody who reached adulthood during the 70s agrees with you.

How anyone can look around at the wreckage created by the sexual revolution, the most profound disaster of our time, and think that it has been a benefit to society is quite beyond my comprehension.

I have no desire to force my beliefs on you or anyone else.

The fundamental building block of society is the family. Sexual adventurism destroys families. Most of our problems, especially those of minorities and poor people, are caused by the decline of families.

You can connect the dots yourself.

[supercat]

More importantly, I don't think there is any reason to believe that sex out of wedlock is wrong. I think that an ideal life includes plenty of premarital sex. And I don't consider myself a hedonist, either. I think that people who marry as virgins have far more regrets on their deathbed than people who behave morally. Rules that may have been appropriate before condoms and penicilin and women in the work force are just outdated.

[Reposted from another thread]

Teaching kids such things wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so prone to forget a few key points:

1. Premarital pregnancy is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
2. The fact that abortion is legal does not change #1.
3. Penile-vaginal contact between fertile individuals creates a non-zero risk of pregancy, no matter what contraceptive methods are employed.
4. Marriage between conception and childbirth may render the premarital pregnancy marginally acceptable, but see #9.
5. One may only experience any form of intimacy "the first time", once.
6. Having all of one's intimate "first times" with the same person makes them much sweeter in a manner that may only be appreciated by one who does so.
7. Premature intimacy can and often will sabotage a relationship, just as building the walls of a building will doom the project if done before the foundation is secure.
8. If one becomes accustomed to the "quick payoff" offered by short-term intimate relationships, it will become very hard to wait out the non-intimate parts which are necessary at the start of a real one.
9. One is unlikely to know at 16 the identity of the person with whom one is really going to want to spend the rest of one's days.

Taken as a whole, these principles do not totally rule out premarital intimacy. My wife and I started sharing a bed after we got engaged but had she gotten pregnant before we were married I would have been 100% certain it wasn't by me. As to whether others would be able to share a bed for three months without engaging in penile-vaginal intercourse, I'm sure some would and some wouldn't. My late wife and I thought we could and we did. I would not, however, expect a typical pair of 17-year-olds to be able to do likewise.