Spike Proteins In Immune Cells - Dr. Bruce Patterson Discusses COVID Long Haul - YouTubeComputer generated transcript may contain phonetic errors and lacks punctuation. Video at link is 1 hour and 24 minutes in length.
Streamed live on Jun 24, 2021
this is dr mobiensa here from
doctorbean.com
welcome to one more show so today we
have a rockstar with us once more we
have had dr
bruce peterson with us before too i
think the importance
of the talk today probably
one of the most important talks that you
would hear we are actually fortunate to
have him with us
the reason is that he has discoveries
for long-haul patients in their
pathology
and the implications and the usage of
those discoveries for the management of
the patient is very important
and i feel that as this pandemic it
seems to me
is winding down the patients who are
long-haul
they are actually increasing and they
are continuing to be in that miserable
state
so the work for dr bruce patterson i
think is going to be and his team is
going to be
groundbreaking to help us get ahead of
that
and i did not tell him this but today i
was talking with some team members with
his friends to see how can we nominate
dr pierre corey and dr bruce patterson
for nobel prize we'll see what happens
but this is how
important i feel these discoveries are
in these
uh these findings are so please
help me welcome dr bruce pettis and
welcome dr bruce matterson
thank you dr bean it's always a pleasure
to be on your show and uh
have our lively discussions and um
i'm sure we'll we'll run over time so
this is uh very exciting for me to be on
your show thank you
thank you very much and then very
quickly i'm gonna
share some of the links here that are
present in the discussion as well
so cool beans this is doctorbean.com
this is dr bruce peterson's uh webpage
called
covet longhaulers.com i want to give a
full disclaimer as well
that i have no commercial interest here
i have no
other interest here other than having dr
patterson
here share his knowledge with you all
and whatever benefit can come to cool
beans will arrive
that is my interest there is no other
commercial financial
or influence related link here
this is also while we're talking about
the
long haul this is flccc site where
long-haul protocol which i had led in
this protocol
dr bruce petterson's team has input as
well
although i feel that their own protocol
that we'll talk with dr patterson
needs a lot of discussion and review for
us as well and usage too
so with this uh let's start so dr
peterson the first question
what can i just start calling you bruce
of course
so bruce the first question what is
long-haul
um is it so two questions here actually
what is long-haul are you seeing it
after covet and
are you seeing it after vaccine boy
that's that's such a great question
um and you know our our big paper just
came out last week in frontiers in
immunology
and it really uh set out um
who is a long hauler and what is a long
hauler
and really the the gist of the paper was
that
we used machine learning to look at a
variety of different biomarkers
uh we started with probably over a
hundred
we narrowed it down to 14 and then we
used those 14
to see what the difference was were
between
uh long haulers severe coveted
mild to moderate covet and normal
individuals
and indeed there it was a very very
distinct
set um you know 99
distinct from active covid um
and it was truly uh its own immunologic
signature
and we developed the long hauler index
so that we could quantify
non-subjectively who is a long-hauler
from a diagnostic standpoint and most
importantly monitor them on therapy
because i know you you know very well
dr bean when you talk to these
individuals their stories are
completely different um and they have
day-to-day variations which
we'll talk about in a moment and to try
and grasp
any uh information in terms of recovery
treatment uh how they're feeling what
they're feeling
and they've been debilitated for months
on end so what's the
what's the contribution of having to be
debilitated
uh in terms of their symptom complex is
so complicated um that i know we
couldn't do it without um
the machine learning and and computer
assistance
got it thank you very much for this and
uh cool beans we're gonna continue to
discuss and go deeper and deeper
i hope that you would come along and and
have that
fascinating discussion one more question
uh
bruce the long haulers the ones that
i've been managing i'm sure that the
ones that you are managing
they go through this hills and valleys
so there was a cool bean here simple
garden who asked this question
that there are flare-ups do you know why
that happens
we do now i mean i think with the paper
setting the stage last week of what is a
long hauler
and and in fact um we were able to get
data
into our paper uh that in frontiers of
in
immunology that suggested that long-haul
long covid is caused by vascular
inflammation
you know and and the fact that vascular
inflammation you know happens all over
the body
um is really a unifying hypothesis
that brings together you know the 215
plus different symptoms
that these long-haulers experience now
the
sequel to that paper which we just
submitted
uh this morning to the pre-print service
uh really showed that it's because
uh non-classical monocytes
carry covid s1 protein
up 15 months after
diagnosis these cells bind to
blood vessel walls and endothelial cells
through a fractal kind and the fractal
kind receptor that's expressed on
non-classical
monocytes and causes inflammation and
these cells can cross the blood brain
barrier of course
and cause vascular inflammation in in
the brain
the most exciting thing that we found um
in the literature uh and i have to um
throw kudos to dr yogendra on this one
uh is that uh these non-classical
monocytes
are mobilized by exercise
and activity and so here you have a cell
carrying
covet protein and no rna by the way we
just
had a first round of um sorting
experiments
and next gen sequencing uh
today as a matter of fact to show that
there really isn't any um protein in
these cells yet they express the s1
protein
but they are mobilized by exercise
and so of course we to a person
who's a long hauler they get worse
after activity worse after exercise
we've had individuals who've
gotten back to pre-covet levels and and
some individuals who were just
absolutely bedridden who felt well
enough to
you know to work in the yard and take
their kids to
sporting events that overdid it and
um you know had a relapse and the fact
is you know if these cells
still contain s1 protein are still
circulating
a little bit of exercise um you know
more than
just a mile or two walk uh they're
they're going to get a
a flare up of their of their symptoms
and that's why you see this
waxing and waning and when we talk about
therapy in
our therapeutic approach um
we'll talk about how that can mitigate
these flares and and and help eliminate
these cells from the circulation
that is an important point and i'm going
to very quickly
if you don't mind this is such an
important topic
and the i think
i just want to very quickly show this
that so cool means if this is a blood
vessel
and there are endothelial cells here
dr patterson is talking about monocytes
that are sitting near the blood vessel
wall
and they are patrolling the blood vessel
boundaries they actually patrol
all boundaries and one important one is
the blood vessel boundary and they are
in an
m2 state or as dr peterson said
non-classical state that means they are
sort of in a eat and repair state
and then so uh dr so bruce
do they have s1 protein in them or are
they just
expressing it yes they have they have s
they are exp they are antigen presenting
cells
basically and so they are um
essentially doing what they're supposed
to be doing which is presenting
foreign antigens and so um yes there's a
s1 proteins on the surface which we
showed by flow cytometry
then we sorted those cells and again
i'll show a couple slides in a moment
and confirmed using high sensitivity
mass spectrometry
that these cells had a single spike
um spike in the mass spec
uh lingo that showed that it was indeed
s1 protein and and what they do
is you know as you mentioned m2
phenotype
it's a pro-inflammatory phenotype so
these cells are still making tnf alpha
and what's very interesting which i'll
show in a slide in a moment
is that when they when these monocytes
bind to
the endothelial cells through fractal
kine
and the fractal kine receptor they
produce
vegf which we see elevated in almost
all long haulers
and they cause vasodilation
why is that important because i'm sure
you've seen this
uh dr bean is that they'll complain of
a fullness in their head and and
dilated blood vessels and
and headaches and migraines which we all
know are caused from
vasodilation not vasoconstriction
so once again there's there's there's
very little we can't explain now that we
understand
this mechanism that's at play in the
long haulers
this is so important even this morning
and yesterday i was speaking with a
patient
young woman 25 years old and she kept
saying it seems like i have pressure in
my head
and i cannot see correctly and i
become confused and if i go out and look
at the bright lights or
or computer screen i start my vision
does
weird things that's how she described it
so are these related to the issue here
wizard dilatation absolutely and um
you know uh i'll pull up uh a couple of
slides now and show
um the cool beans what um uh some of our
data and what we're talking about
um uh i hope you can all see this screen
um this plot
really shows on the far left this these
are classical monocytes
the cd14 high cd16 negative monocytes
they have absolutely no um uh
s1 protein which is interesting because
as we say in the paper
classical monocytes express very high
levels of the ace2 receptor
and almost no ccr5
intermediate monocytes express very high
levels of ccr5
and high levels of ace2 receptors yet
maybe
uh you know occasional uh infection of
of these cells in both the severe uh and
the long hauler
patients but it's really over here on
the far right
when you look at the non-classical
monocytes
which express no h2 receptor
they express ccr5 and they express
high levels of the fractal kind receptor
and that's where you're seeing all the
s1
positive cells in these
individuals now this is the mass spec
analysis
it's it's rather small but it's in the
new paper
but this top panel here this top
rectangle
shows this single spike in this blue box
that's store-bought s1 protein
we bought it from a company it's highly
purified
it's it's it's the full length
s1 protein and if you look at these next
six panels every single one of these
long haulers between 12 and 15 months
has the identical spike which
represents the s1 protein and if you
look over here
in these two graphs which are
representative of
you know of the specific sequence
of amino acid that uh is 40 percent
analogous um to the spike
i mean 40 of the spike one uh
protein so we confirmed by two different
technologies
uh that these non-classical monocytes
uh are carrying uh the s1 protein
also we went back and looked at the s1
protein
in the cells the cd14 positive
uh cd14 low cd16 positive
s1 protein positive cells
and guess what they're expressing
cx3 cr1 um
which is the fractal kind receptor
and of course that is what allows them
to bind to
uh the vascular epithelium
which this isn't as good as your diagram
dr bean but it shows just the propensity
of of these three monocyte subsets
and their functions the classical
monocytes phagocytosis
the intermediate monocytes
antigen presentation regulation of
apoptosis
trans endothelial migration
and then of course the non-classical uh
monocytes which as you suggested
their function is to patrol the blood
vessels
uh they are also phagocytic and they
also present
uh antigen which is exactly what's
causing
all the vascular inflammation in long
covid
as you can see here on the closer up
these cells bind through
fractal kind and the fractal kind
receptor
and in the process produce a th1
response
which as the cool beans know the th1
response is a
classical antiviral response that
consists of interferon gamma and
interleukin-2
well you know what goes into our
long-haul or index
interferon gamma levels and il-2
divided by cxcl4 which is of course a
ligand
for ccr5 but it
we didn't know this when we were coming
up with the algorithm or the computer
was helping us come up with the
long-haul or index but when we started
looking at the mechanism
that causes long haulers we found
amazing correlation with what we had
published last week in terms of
the bioinformatics and the vascular
inflammation
theory and then again over here you see
when
these vascular monocytes bind to
the endothelial cells through
cx3 cr1 which is the fractal kind
receptor
and fractal kine which is another name
for it is cx3
cl1 messenger rna what does it do
promotes angiogenesis through vegf
and it causes vasodilation which of
course
accounts for this head fullness
headaches
migraines etc maybe even the brain fog
and so um why is that important well
these monocytes express ccr5
and they're mobilized by exercise and so
from a therapeutic standpoint
we recommend ccr5 antagonists
we've been using moravarak laurentlimab
is another example that's been talked
about on this show a lot
it's another ccr5 antagonist is still
awaiting
uh approval but they are critical
in keeping these monocytes from
migrating
all over the body in response to ranties
and people always say i talk about
ranties all the time well you know what
in the long haulers ranty's is elevated
and over 80 percent
of long haulers so we still have a
rante's driven disease and in fact in
one long hauler
uh last week their ranty's level was
900 000 when normal is 10 thousand
and the highest we saw in our first
studies of acute covid back
in february 2020 in severely critical
patients was three hundred thousand so
at times the levels of
ranties in long haulers is even higher
than
uh the most severe cases of acute covet
and then effect in fact the angiogenesis
and vasodilatation
play a part but we can also interrupt
uh this fractal kind fractal kind
receptor
uh pathway with statins
so the hallmark of our treatment regimen
now
um that we recommend is a ccr5
antagonist
and statins and of course uh ivermectin
we have found
uh as as you've used extensively and
and dr corey as well we find it to be
very very useful
in our combinations uh we tend not to
use it uh
alone because now that we understand the
mechanism
behind long covid um
we want to interrupt the pathway we want
to treat the cause
and not the symptoms but by no stretch
of the imagination
do we think that ivermectin isn't
important in its immunomodulatory
effects
that complements uh the ccr5 antagonists
uh and fractal kind and excited
i'll go go ahead i have a couple of very
important questions so i don't want to
break your stream of thought so please
complete your thought and i would
ask the questions yes i just i want to
uh show one last slide and i'm excited
to get back to the questions because
this has been such
a key question uh out there in
social media and and from our patients
and that is the post-vaccination uh
long-haulers or the the people who have
never had covid
um and three or four months after
vaccination they have long
hauler symptoms well i think we've
enrolled
um you know a hundred or maybe even
close to 200 now
and we're starting to input the data
into our machine learning
algorithm and we had fascinating results
from the first
20 or 25 that we fed into the machine
learning
where we saw a very heterogeneous group
there was one individual who was normal
by the severity score which we use in
acute covid
and negative by the long hauler square
which we use in long haulers
we found four um
individuals who had a uh
inflammatory profile that looked a lot
like
um covid and severe active covet
although it wasn't and then the rest
look exactly like long haulers from the
long hauler index
so and then we went to a binary
uh bioinformatics models they all
uh qualified as long haulers so
indeed immunologically they resemble
very much like long haulers we've
treated them as such
and we've been very successful in
treating them so as much as it's
a side effect of vaccines i think it's
not something to
be too concerned about it's treatable
um and uh it's not something that will
that will stick for forever so we're
very pleased to um
to take a look at that so that is
excellent i actually have a question on
one of your slides as well but let me
ask a few questions that are
even burning questions for me too so
first
question reema are these monocytes or
macrophages
they are monocytes and you know there's
been some reports that
macrophages in the gut it's and in the
lungs on autopsy contain
um you know covalent sars and i i don't
i don't doubt that um that's just
a part and parcel to the fact that
macrophages
function in the tissues they're gonna
have um
residual um virus i don't think it's
replicating
the the the key point about our
discovery
is it's in a highly mobile
cell that's in the blood they are true
monocytes um non-classical monocytes but
monocytes nevertheless
and they have the capacity to go all
over your body
and cause inflammation and that is what
is
so key about this finding relative
just uh to autopsy findings where you're
going to find
you know bits and pieces of virus and
you know in
terminally differentiated uh macrophages
thank you very much i want to share a
thought with the with the cool beans
cool beans for the today's talk i was
thinking that
the whole world population became stuck
with this
covet seven billion and more people
and then there are people who invented
divermectin or discovered it
and now they're they are not but there
are people who are pushing it like dr
pierre corey they are the people who are
saving
billions of people similarly vaccines
are actually saving billions as well
and i was thinking about dr bruce
patterson and his discovery
it is at the same level of saving
billions of people because this misery
i can tell you today while talking with
one of the patients i was so
angry he he has post-covered
long-haul and he himself is a research
worker and a health care professional
and he goes to doctors he knows them he
himself is a healthcare
professional and he's a research worker
and he goes to doctors and they have no
idea
and when he says we should try this or
we should test that they have no idea
and they have no
other than a few they have no even
interest
and i was becoming so angry to say if
this is what vaccines are going to do
and then we are going to break people
and then we have no help for them
then what is really the help there so
once again thank you very much for your
work
i wish everyone in the world can once
know that there is
a team that has discovered it and they
have a solution
and be able to use that now there is
another
question here which is important simple
garden says
will the system eventually equalize and
return to normal
that's you know these are just the the
the best questions that get to the heart
of the matter
and the fact is these cells have a
definitive lifespan
and you know if you look at classical
monocytes
intermediate monocytes and non-classical
monocytes
in normal human beings you're talking
about you know
life spans in the order of days and
weeks
what happens though in pathologic
conditions
is uh a whole set of mechanisms
that prevent cell death
come into play that make them more
long-lived
than in normal individuals that said
using the combination of ccr5
antagonists and
and statins and ivermectin
we've seen by doing serial monitoring of
these cells
we've seen the levels go down so we
are very very hopeful and optimistic
that eventually these cells get cleared
we are
we've already shown people in
patients in our program that we've
gotten their immune systems back to
normal
absolute normal every one of the 14 plex
cytokines in our panel is normal and
you know that was the goal you know
restore the immune system
to normalcy you know sometimes there's a
lag in the symptoms
but and then also there's there's
symptoms that just
are a function of being debilitated for
12 months
i mean if you broke your hip and and you
were laid up on the sofa
for eight months and all of a sudden
your hip was better
you know you would have aches and pains
and be out of shape and not be able to
do what you used to do and have
have fatigue um so i think it's
reassuring that we can say to these
individuals
hey your your immune profile is back to
normal
um usually their their symptoms are
right along with that
um but some may have some symptoms that
remain and
so we get them to 90 to 95 percent
of their pre-covet levels and we still
have five to ten percent to go but i
think that five
to ten percent is a function of being
debilitated for so long
and maybe just normal effects of being
sedentary or even you know bedridden for
so long
that we have to start stepping up their
exercise now that we've
you know eliminated these these cells
stepping up their activity
um and um getting them back to you know
getting them back to a normal life
there may be setbacks but what i tell
them is
we were able to get your immune system
back to normal we have a target like a
like a bow and arrow um we know
where the bullseye is and we know how to
get you back there so go ahead
you know we'll step up your exercise
go get vaccinated if you want to get
vaccinated
um we'll deal with the consequences
of increased activity and other
perturbations
of the immune system because we know how
to get you back to where you were
and that's our message got it thank you
very much
i want to ask one more question on the
pathology side and then we have tons of
questions
uh so on the pathology i want to share
my screen for one more second and i have
a question
uh so number one correction i wrote
fractal coin it is fractal
fraction yes
i think i spelled it five different ways
while i was writing the paper
thank you very much so the question that
i have is you you mentioned interferon
gamma as well
so we know that interferon gamma cool
beans are aware of a diagram where
we have t helper 2 pathway and p helper
1 pathway
and then t helper 1 this is naive t cell
and then we have cytotoxic t cells and
we know that the t helper one side
produces the
interferon gamma how does interferon
gamma affect them
is that the what you have discovered
that interferon gamma then effects them
and activates them
or the other way around that is the
piece i didn't catch
yeah i believe it's the other way around
and um
and it's being produced by them i mean
these these monocytes still have
pro-inflammatory properties
so they're making the tnf and they're
making you know other
other cytokines in some cases uh il-6
and
you know um and and the fact is
we we have all those in our panel so
we that's allowed us to put together the
mechanisms that you just elegantly
uh drew out and we can monitor so we
know
interferon gamma is part of this process
we know vegf is part of this process
we know that io2 is just going to be
upregulated because they are trying to
fight off
what they the immune system perceives as
a viral infection
so of course il-2 is going to come along
with interferon gamma
and of course those are the numerator of
our long hauler index
so by by therapies you know we should be
lowering the numerator of our long or
index and of course bringing the
long-haul or index
down to normal levels that's the beauty
of having
precision medicine and and having a
non-subjective
measure which turns out is very much a
part
uh of the pathogenesis got it okay so
essentially what you're doing is that
you are telling these guys
to stop and one is that you're breaking
their connection with the endothelial
cells
and the second is then you're trying to
convert them as as well to better cells
or die off
correct yeah i love it we're trying to
reverse the
the program uh that is involved in
them uh uh preventing
them from dying off so we try and you
know obviously i think the ccr5
antagonists are
are um you know are very much involved
in that as well
so so cool means what is happening is
it's just my excitement and excitement
for uh for a therapy that makes so much
sense
that we are saying that hey these cells
continue to live on
and they're bothering the system as well
they're creating cytokines they're
causing
vasculitis and all those symptoms
and we want them number one to stop
doing it in the immediate
and then we want them to either die off
or converted to some other form
so that is that is genius so thank you
very much for
uh doing this uh dr petterson uh bruce
i'm gonna ask more questions now
this is just so so exciting so caitlyn
says what about reactivated viruses due
to covet is there a treatment that can
help
so slightly different do you have a
comment about this question
yes because um a lot of um
uh long haulers as you know
have chronic other chronic viral
infections ebv
cmv uh varicella hgv6
etc they're herpes family viruses
and so there isn't reactivation
uh of covid because you know as we said
you know it's just protein there is no
rna
as as much as we can find and um
you know we're going to great lengths to
we have gone to great lengths to find
that
um but you know uh so they don't have
this true latent
phase like herpes family viruses
that tend to lay dormant reactivate
lay dormant reactivate you know and
that's all part of
you know chronic fatigue syndrome and
you know and
and some of these other more chronic
post viral
infectious syndromes where they live
along they live for years
but they're you know uh sarsko v2 just
doesn't have
you know that capacity so you know
eventually they'll be eliminated
as we discussed in our paper it's very
much like borrelia
which is the pathogen responsible for
post lime
um fascinating that that
that post-lime involves these
intermediate um and possibly these
non-classical
monocytes because it sheds its
uh basically the cell wall the bacteria
remains
and gets phagocytized by these monocytes
but there's no there's no active
bacterial uh
replication going on yet we have a very
similar
um you know symptom set uh in post
lyme so we think that our strategies
that we've deployed for a long covid
will
uh apply for post lime fibromyalgia
chronic fatigue um and you know
we're actively pursuing that now because
we want i think we're able now to say
uh let's see how closely it resembles it
much like we did with the post
vaccination group that are covet
negative
we wanted to use our machine learning
and say well
where did they fall are they long
haulers are they active coveted are they
some
unique category on their own and like i
said we just
you know at least on the planet
preliminary data
see that they're very much like long
haulers and
not not so much like uh active copy but
you know uh if i was a betting person i
would put my money on the fact that
there is no replicating virus
um left in uh long haulers
at least especially after you know say
eight to ten months i mean we found
covet rna out to uh nine you know three
months
maybe four or five months and we we
published that last fall but
um i think we're looking at 12 15 months
it's be hard-pressed to find virus
love it thank you very much for this um
and please
don't mind luffy is here as well and
he is an admirer of your team's work as
well
so he's just chiming in so some more
questions uh
so in your protocol i believe that you
have maravaroc
agromectin statins aspirin
luvox so uh muravarak
so how do you target this state through
miravra for example
well again these uh non-classical um
monocytes are expressing ccr5 and
you know much like bees are attracted to
honey
you know these immune cells are going to
be attracted to ranties
and we already showed in our first paper
that rantes was statistically
significantly
elevated in long haulers compared to
severe mild to moderate and um
and normal uh individuals so again
ranti's is playing a role in long covid
um it's made by activated platelets
which are probably responding on the
you know the inflamed uh you know epi
endothelium
so you know it you can really if i could
draw as well as you do dr bean i could
probably
put it all together but um i just
haven't gotten down to
um you know laying it all out on a piece
of paper or a white board
like you so elegant so why not i come
visit you and you just tell me what to
draw in a drawer on a white it's a
scanning invitation
perfect i'll be over uh so then
if we continue with the next part of the
questions
you have been i believe in the us
and that would mean in the world as well
your team has managed
the most long-haul patients tell me this
how soon
they start becoming they start feeling
better
yeah it's that's a great question by the
way we we just did a pilot study in the
uk
we're um negotiating with a lab there
we're
already on our way to a um validating
the assays
in um in a lab group that's based in
spain but they have labs all over the eu
so um we are rapidly expanding and we're
scaling
we're bringing on three more um
physicians
uh into the uh coveted longhaulers.com
group and then we have a hundred over a
hundred network
physicians that that we work with to
actually write the prescriptions and
manage the patients so
um we are just aggressively
scaling right now in terms of um what we
look for
is um we we start
we we go at two week intervals and we
want to see some improvement in two
weeks
and we really truly believe that we you
know for the most part for the majority
of the patients we do see
some improvement at two weeks um
do they get all the way to ninety
percent in two weeks no
um do they get some get to seventy
percent or eighty percent
yes um and then we'll go another two
weeks
to four weeks um and then
we'll continue to see improvement and
then we repeat the labs to see if we've
restored their immune system to normalcy
so i would say on average uh four to six
weeks
and we're starting to get people really
um
back to you know their normal lives and
you know with some with maybe some
residual
symptoms which we really think are just
part and parcel to being debilitated
and again we have that we have the
precision medicine to say that their
immune system has been restored
and that's really what our goal is
got it sorry i actually i mute myself
that is why
so the next question so hello dr b dr
patterson
have you found any relationship between
covert long haul
and herb w envelope expression in teal
info
sites oh my god i never thought
um someone would bring up a retroviral
past
of mine in a single question with long
covid
um of course the answer to that is no
but i
love this question and thank you for
asking me because
you know one of the questions i get
asked is oh are there they're
um hiv or retroviral sequences in the
covid genome and uh my response is
we have retrovirus like sequences
in our genome they're called herbs human
endogenous retrovirus are viral
sequences
so um you know i i
i love that question i haven't looked at
frankly i don't have time
um i'm not you know i i left my
academic hat a long time ago uh i'm
running a company
and um yeah i'm i'm pushing the basic
science behind it but i just don't have
time to
to look at every really cool question
like you just raised
got it one more question
post vaccines how does
so we established that this is happening
to post vaccine as well
how is the vaccine ending up causing
this
well that we're looking into i mean
there's there's one thing that's
um that we see that's different from
long covet and that is the extr the
elevations of um vascular uh
inflammation markers so the long-haul or
index which
which i said is il-2 plus interferon
gamma over ccl4
um that's elevated which makes them you
know in our book
uh a long hauler um but
we don't see the elevations in in veg f
which is great because that causes uh
peripheral neuropathy
i think it's the responsible for the
brain fog because it reflects as you
just as i showed my slide you
you drew out um you know those cells
cross the blood brain barrier and
cause this fullness and vegf expression
there and and vasodilatation which of
course
is probably the heart of a headache and
and migraines
but um we just don't see that that the
most common pattern we see
in um in uh in
post vaccination uh long-haul or
symptoms
is uh ranty's ccl5
plus soluble cd40 ligand
in addition to elevations in the long
hauler index
got it and one more time
where we are going to look we're we're
going to look in these um
uh in these monocytic subsets to
see in the post vaccination individuals
if
if they're still uh harboring you know
fragments of
of covet protein um you know three and
four months after
uh after vaccination
so one more time hold beans who are here
i'm i'm seeing about
1300 people who are watching right now
uh
this is dr patterson's uh company's
website once again i have no association
no commercial interest my interest is
i'm grateful to bruce i'm grateful to
his team
he's here he's talking he's providing
information
needed information uh it creates hope it
creates it saves life i
know long haulers who have been told me
that i want to die
and so here here is a company that can
help
this is his website
coveredlonghaulers.com
so please if you are if you are in need
of
help here please connect with them i
want to
continue to also share that this is the
long haul protocol where dr petterson's
team
has input as well this is on flccc site
so having said that we're talking about
long-hauling which could be because
of the covet or because of the vaccine
so next question uh dr peterson
how do you know that this was s1 was
that where was the s2 so
this is the biggest thing so you know
that this is s1 fine
where did the s2 go it's a good question
um you know i think part of it was
um you know we found the s1 protein
um we are in the midst of doing
you know even more protein sequencing to
see what else is there
but um we our goal was
you know the fact that we found it by
flow cytometry using high parameter
flow cytometry where we were able to
label uh
cells with 20 different antibodies
including the
an antibody against s1 protein and then
sort those cells and and you know our
our
singular goal was to confirm that indeed
um there was s1 protein in these
non-classical monocytes
that is not the end of our journey
trying to figure out
exactly you know what is there are there
other fragments that could be
stimulating the immune system as well
and it and again like i said we've
already sorted those cells
uh again and purified the rna for
next-gen sequencing
uh to look at the full complement
of um of sars code v2
um rna and and that would be multiple
genes in addition to
uh s1 um and you know so far
we haven't found any but we're we're
doing a another set of experiments here
in the next few days
got it all right so the next question
prima
is there a pattern establishing
potential
post wax long color who is likely to
have hyper reaction this is
one of the most common question for me
as well that folks ask me
do we know who will develop severe covet
do we know who would become a long
hauler post covert post wax
do you have any clue from the
research you've done so far yeah so so
what was very interesting was in the um
the paper we just submitted is we used
some severe codes as
controls and in fact we saw uh this
monocytic reservoir being established
in active covid and um
because but but they were also those
cells were also
um you know more likely to be rna
positive
and um s1 positive
now in terms of the post-vacs
we're we're basically going down the
exact same path and
the part of the path that we're at right
now is we've already
done the um immune profiling in terms of
soluble mediators cytokines chemokines
etc
and the next step for us of course is to
then look for
you know s1 protein which is you know
what's what's
what we're vaccinated against and um
look at that in the different subsets of
monocytes in that group
but we have data that suggests that
long haulers are established
at the time of infection and for me
uh having been involved since you know
january 2020
we got into a situation where i don't
think uh individuals were treated long
enough
and or and or treated with steroids
which yes from the pathology standpoint
prevented tissue damage from the
virologic standpoint
maybe not so good because it allowed you
know reservoirs to be
you know to be established so you know
everything's a
risk benefit um and but i do think
what brought down the specificity of our
long hauler index to you know 93 percent
or something
still great was that several of the
severe
coveted individuals that were in the
study that was published last week
actually had a long hauler index meaning
they were on their way to becoming
at least immunologically a hauler
and they still had active coping the
rest of active cover we
we didn't see any signal in the long
hauler index
but there was a few and we really think
that that's established
at the time of infection um and it's all
about reservoirs
and tropism and um
you know we are just starting on our
journey with the
the postbacks long haulers to see if
it's something similar
or if it's something different or is it
just something that
you know um like we've seen some mild
therapy and
it goes away so um you know as much as
it we don't want to see that
it's we can diagnose it and we can
manage it
and we can follow it now with the
long-haul or index
got it two questions that are in my mind
then i'm going to go to a question
you can look at the question now and
maybe respond to it later
there is some doctor yo over here i have
no idea who he is
so doctor you are saying is it true that
dr
p is born his name
[Laughter]
oh that's funny um you know
uh maybe maybe someday okay
so i have a question about tinnitus
many of the post vaccine patients
are experiencing tinnitus as well post
covet as well
what is the relationship of tinnitus
with this mechanism
i mean we very
often see tinnitus with brain fog
and um what is really
miraculous is that with i would say
within three to five days tinnitus is
gone with a ccr5 antagonist
um which is brilliant because it's
really bothersome to a lot of people
um and i and i wonder i'm just thinking
that
preventing the migration of cells at
least in long haulers
uh into the brain um
and keeping them from the vasodilation
which i think
tonight is probably uh a part and parcel
with
vasodilation and and increase pressure
um in you know in certain parts of the
certain parts of the brain but you know
we see it a lot
we've treated it a lot and i think we're
very good at
eliminating it and that is a very
important point
my worry has been that
with the long haulers when there is a
continuous
inflammation going on and now we know
thanks to your
work that it is at the boundaries of the
blood vessels and vasculitis is
occurring
there could be damage if this continues
on for a longer period of time
because it will be scarring on top of
the damage
and that can become a permanent issue so
that means managing this
as fast as possible is important
even when we say here we are sitting
here and saying it is possible that in
some months the patient would gradually
continue to become better
i feel it is important for them to get
better as fast as possible
so that the damage and the repair
is not that extensive that the blood
vessels and the areas are just
just gone they're scarred am
i don't disagree with that and i think
um you know
you made a really good point i mean and
in fact the immune system
uh and tissues have amazing capacity to
repair
and number one repolarizing macrophages
like we
talked about in acute covid with the
ccr5 antagonists
by crosslinking
ccr5 you uh you can
convert and repolarize macrophages from
the
uh inflammatory pro-inflammatory m2
phenotype to m1 more effector
reparative phenotype um and i think
all of those are very important but i do
think like in any disease
the earlier is treatment the better the
sooner you get on this the better
um and you know it's it's it's sad that
it's taken us this long to really
recognize
long covid and um and start treating
aggressively
and um you know we we saw in the
in last june we started working on it
aggressively
and we're in a really good place right
now
but to think that people suffered
for so long is really
like i've said in many reports gut
wrenching i hear it every day
we we now get like you said probably
have the biggest cohort of long haulers
uh if not in the united states maybe in
the world um
and we've heard so many stories and
seen so many different manifestations
it's uh
you know we're we're trying everything
we can we uh i think we've
uh we've we've gotten reimbursement now
for
some of our testing um we're in other
countries
uh we're talking to congressmen and
people in the in the government to
push for benefits for these individuals
who may be out of work they've certainly
been debilitated
but another there doesn't there's not a
day that goes by
where we not only do we think about
mechanisms and what's behind all that
that we think about
what can we do who can we talk to
to get these patients taken care of um
because the economic hardship um
of long covid is mind-boggling
if as as we all think could be ten to
thirty percent of everybody who's been
infected this is not going away in
two years three years maybe even five
years
so um we really have to think about
um you know benefits and and helping
these individuals
in india monocytes will have a lifespan
of around 24 hours
if i'm not wrong would new monocytes
also have the spikes within
um that's a good point uh we addressed
it in
our paper obviously yes they have a
24-hour life span
normally but there's nothing about this
that is normal
um and like we said and we wrote out in
our paper
there are um reasons why these
monocytes are are long longer lived
we do think that eventually they will um
they will die off
um but yeah they're they're longer lived
because impact that's what happens in
pathologic conditions
so um yeah no if you look in the
literature you're absolutely right
you know classical mass 24 hours here
you know
the non-classicals the you know the
dogma is
they have a weak lifespan but again
you're talking about normal individuals
and i'm going to show a comment it's not
a question
but this is what i'm seeing many
neurologists doing
and check this comment out sylvia says i
have a friend who has been a few
too few neurologists and they do not
know how to help her
she has been getting headaches for six
months she has gotten shorts behind her
eyes in her optic nerve
she's an rn i know that some
neurologists have been
offering patients shorts through their
ears for steroids and so on
this is this is just so sad uh
what is the right thing just the
protocol that you have
that is the one even after six months
that should help
yeah absolutely and and you know what
and and
and and thankfully you know we all
collaborated on the flccc
protocol which i think uh has
significant benefits as well
um you know we need to tackle this thing
before
and and yes there is a lot of shopping
for the quote quick fix
and um some of the things i've heard you
know
stem cells and um you know
you know uh exosomes and you know it's
just
mind-boggling what is out there um
to try and these people to get better
and
um you know it's not
you know it's it's just about looking at
enough of these individuals and looking
at the disease and digging deep
to figure out what what's going on and
you know obviously we have our
you know our our bent on on the whole
situation
but my my advice would be to avoid
any invasive um procedures at this point
unless you have some uh underlying
condition
on top of got it thank you very much
uh two more questions there is one here
from
site two three six zero anyone had
success with the protocol
[Music]
many i mean we wouldn't be doing the
protocol if it wasn't successful
so yes many many many many i mean
yeah i can probably count on my hand the
number of individuals
that um haven't responded
and a lot of times they have
many many other underlying conditions
and so
you're faced with this balancing act of
trying to treat the long-haul or
symptoms but get but they've got x
y z you know whether it be you know
lupus or
some other things and you know um
there's there's some extremely
complicated
patients that we've come across that um
either we've said
we we can't recommend
treatment until you figure out what's
going on with your underlying conditions
um we will advise them that you know
yeah
there's you could have low cd8 counts
we've seen that 25 percent long
haul or so maybe your immune system
you're slightly immunosuppressed
although part of your immense immune
system is hyper immune
i mean we try and give them as much
information as they can but
there's some that just have so many
things going on that um
you know it's difficult to sort through
them all
got it all right next question brandon
andrade says is it common long haulers
post wax or post
covered with chronic dysphagia
and how are you treating those cases how
long does it take to recover
on average you know we haven't seen
a lot of chronic dysphagia we've seen
some
and again you know we don't know if
that's over
stimulation of the vagus nerve or
neuropathy because of vegf
[Music]
typically what we do or sometimes they
feel this strap this tightness of these
strap muscles which i think is is just
uh you know
inflammation or maybe even a little bit
of myositis
um again we just stay the course we're
going to treat the underlying cause
and we're going to see these these
symptoms go away
and if they remain after we restore
their immune system back to normal
then we'll go looking for other other
causes
just a comment here beth bauer says dr
bean i was better in one day one day
so once again thank you very much bruce
for your work and your team's work
emily vegan says how long is maravarak
prescribed for
well again you know we start at two
weeks we go to four weeks
um and um you know
i think that's that's where we that's
where we end up with
you know a very good response and you
know normal
close to normalcy in the immune system
if not if not normal
you know and everyone talks about the
the toxicity of murabarak and
we have two papers um posted on our
website
one on the by the nih uh the
safety of maravarock um over five
years in hiv patients who take it every
day
um and then we have another paper um
showing the safety of maravarak in the
pediatric
population and you know what
nothing says safety like
safety in the pediatric population and
since you're on
you know there there's the pediatric
paper if you're on it for
you know two weeks maybe four weeks at
the uh
outside you know longest is probably six
weeks you know
you're and we monitor you know liver
enzymes just to be
ultra cautious but you know we don't see
uh we we've seen two liver enzyme
elevations
in individuals who took tylenol
and zero in maravarak so it's tylenol ii
moravarak zero so far but um
those are the two papers right there
that um are on our website if anyone
wants to read about the
the safety profile got it thank you
pro tool 44 says would long haulers be
affected by micro rna dysregulation
again you know what there's only so many
hours in the day
um you know we um don't have the luxury
of you know looking at all the the
questions we want to
look at so no we haven't we haven't
looked at that one
got it all right
so that's an interesting question uh
totally up to you if you
want to pass on it but the interest
question is interesting so tara
ab123 says will the muscle cells in the
deltoid be replaced after being targeted
by
immune response due to vaccination that
is if they took up the antigen and
they're presenting the antigen and the
immune system cells comes and kill them
would these cells be replaced or what
happens
well the good news is muscle cells um
you know
uh can recover i mean they're not
um but i have no idea i just
i just haven't looked at that got it
i want to ask you one more question from
my side here
uh two things one i wanna understand
what is the future of your program how
do you continue to scale up
one request in this questions context
that i'll make to cool beans and cool
means you know that i have never tried
to
push you to do something i say a
customary request
to share like subscribe i think this is
one of the
videos that if we all get together and
we share it to as many people as we can
it has saving lives is another thing
here it is saving misery saving from
financial disasters
saving even even from suicides so please
share it as much and my question to dr
uh paterson what is the future of your
program number one
and number two what is immunotrack app
yeah great great questions and um
you know it's the the program
again we're already expanding uh around
the world we're
we're into you know getting into uk the
eu
central america um and uh
south america uh potentially into
asia at some point so yeah we're
expanding there
um you know the great thing is we can
scale up the manufacture of our
um our test kits uh quite easily
we're now scaling the telemedicine but
we are super excited about the
immunotrac
app and the immuno watch that we just
got our first shipment and so
um the app should be live in in you know
about two to three weeks
it's already been accepted i'm pleased
to announce uh
for the app store on apple it'll run off
apple it'll run off
android and it will run off our specific
watch
and you'll be able to
score your own symptoms track
heart rate blood pressure
o2 and heart rate variability
over time you'll be able to upload your
labs
you'll be able to upload your
medications
and then the physicians will have a
dashboard
where they can say well i change
medication on this day
look at what happened with the symptoms
scores look at what happened with the um
the the the heart rate with the heart
rate variability
o2 bp everything and see
see this dynamic going on in these
individuals
then ultimately what we want to do is
apply bioinformatics
to all the data that we're collecting
along with the immuno watch data
to provide even better algorithms for
prediction
and as i said in the beginning we are
aggressively going to expand
into chronic fatigue post lyme
fibromyalgia other immune based
[Music]
conditions uh in addition to long
haulers because
once we've established the model i think
we'll we'll keep moving forward
in in the immunology space and then the
best part
about what we offer at insole dx is the
ability
to provide basic science research that
drives that engine that results in
precision medicine and better health
care
got it thank you very much good luck and
totally deserved for the work that you
have done
i am really excited that after the
covered long haul and vaccine long haul
you're now moving towards the chronic
fatigue and post lime
because those patients have been
suffering for decades
without much help exactly so
anthony karalika says reactivation of
non-viral pathogen
many findings tick-borne brilia
bartonella
babassia and mold toxicity
all previously harbored but at bay
before c19
immune wreckage symptoms all the same as
long haulers you touched upon that a
little bit before as well
yeah agreed and that's you know um
the pathogenesis can even be similar for
instance
you know like i said borrelia there's no
sign of
of the bacterial nucleic acids
but the the the cell wall proteins
are are being phagocytized by
intermediate and non-classical monocytes
and just like we just presented
are being presented to the immune system
in these
individuals and and probably causing the
same vascular
inflammation and and thus the same
symptom complex
don moonslander says does suspect ii
have to enter bloodstream
in order to express s1 on monocytes
no because they they patrol
um you know they patrol the blood they
patrol
uh for you know um you know these
dime cells they patrol um you know
most of the body for that part and um
not to mention in our first paper from
last february we were actually the first
to report
um plasma viral load with sars cov2
it's there we had to use uh droplet
digital pcr
which is extremely sensitive and used
for looking at cell-free
dna and cancer so that's how sensitive
it is and
we found virus and plasma mostly in
severe
cases but indeed you know there there is
virus
uh in plasma we don't know if it's you
know like everything else we don't know
if it's replicating
but um we found it so we got it
this is an important question denise
says how about
mcas folks sure
you know we'll take a look that might
require some additional markers
i mean you know it's conceivable that
you know our our current panel and we
have the capacity
to add to it um and as we go
to each of these new frontiers if you
will
um we may have to add additional markers
like
much like we would with mcas
frisco coupon says dr patterson what are
the three top things
institutions can do to improve their
relationship and trust
with the society which i think quite
quite a damaged trust at this time yeah
you know
i think um number one this
this pandemic's been a huge challenge
and um
you know the management of it is is
difficult because there was a lot of
things that were unexpected
but um you know i think
really in the future we have to have a
plan
for emerging pathogens i've said this
for a long time
we have to stockpile drugs that are
immune modulators and
and and drugs that um
like ccr5 antagonists where you can
enhance the immune system
in a non-pathogen specific way uh
and there's of course other drugs that
you could do that but
i think part of the problem is we were
just
caught flat-footed um with this pandemic
and then when that you know when we saw
you know a year ago you know i i came
out in march i think in 2020 said
you know when i looked at the mutation
rate i said we're gonna have a problem
you know and and this came from my hiv
days i mean we're gonna have a problem
once we come up with pathogens
pathogen-specific therapies
neutralizing antibodies vaccines etc
virus is going to fight back
and that's what it's doing right now
it's fighting back with with variants
and you know what the variants are going
to emerge and then we're going to be in
a race
against the variance but we have to come
up with
a strategy that involves
non-pathogen specific therapies
and that we know from cancer in the pd1
pdl one story that we can
we can fight off foreign invaders
whether it's cancer
or virally infected cells
in a way that's not specific for that
particular cancer
or that particular virus or a particular
pathogen by enhancing our immune system
and i think that's got to be the focus
of an ongoing strategy so that
we don't get caught again uh in a
situation like this
got it and please don't mind when i'm
looking around i
am looking at the comments to look for
the next questions
so it's not that i'm ignoring your
message my apologies
so we have jodi virginia's question does
iver mechtin thwart the establishment of
a long haul from wax or
covet with early treatment
i i don't think that's been studied um
frankly and
we don't we don't know
like i said there's some evidence of why
long-haulers become long-haulers at the
acute phase
but um uh you know no one's really
trying to intervene
we're just now reporting what we think
you know
and and you know we'll get on to how can
we prevent it
um and yeah maybe maybe ever mechtin and
combination of ivermectin um
ccr5 antagonists and statins
will be a protocol that can be used
to number one to prevent people from
becoming
severe but number two also be able to
um thwart the establishment of
reservoirs
uh in these cells got it thank you
and just if if i can add my comment this
is not a study
my patients many many hundreds of
patients were covered
a total of three patients became long
haulers
and i have been regularly using
ivermectin my primary use is ivamectin
similarly we have heard from dr hector
carvalho as well he has a latest paper
too
about long hauling and ivermectin so it
seems like there is a benefit
so i think this is great combination
that we have statins and
ivormectin and possibly steroids as well
to help
[Music]
continuing i i think that
this this talk today could be the mic
drop talk because we have now
on dr bean we have talked about the
prophylaxis we have talked about the
management
outpatient management severe management
and now with the long haul post vaccine
and
post covert i think the whole structure
is complete
this is such in such an important talk
thank you very much
once again uh bruce for being here
uh so we have a question from and are
you okay
if i asked a few more questions i know
it is 1 hour 20 minutes
bilal new jersey is there any
individuals who got
free of meds after they got successfully
treated
to 95 okay meaning are there people who
actually helped them we're doing a lot
of that right now
we're um we're basically taking them off
meds and
perturbing their sis like i said what
we're trying to establish is a
is a target like a bow and arrow you
know
we know how to get you back to your
immune system being normal
now what we do is when they get back to
normal we take them off meds
to start slowly increasing their
exercise
and perturbing their system and
knowing that we can go back on the meds
and bring them back down to baseline and
immune normalcy
if if they were to get um
if they were to get worse but yeah
that's exactly
kind of the stage after all these months
that we are in with
our many many patients is that um
we're more and more thinking about okay
what do we do in terms of exercise
like i said some of them want to get
vaccinated and and we say okay
go ahead perturb your system we know
what to do we know how to get you back
so that's that's our philosophy yeah
awesome web access 11 says
me cfs dr bruce please get in touch with
ron davis
whose son is suffering
yeah i've heard that story he was at
stanford when i was there
um i just um you know i
we're just literally every day
i mean working till late hours i just
i just haven't had a chance you know
he knows where to reach me if he wants
to call me that's great but
you know i um i just
from the minute i wake up till i put my
head on
i'm i'm working so thank you
anthony stefano says do we
have any insights into what happens to
the spike proteins
during mitosis can this cause fusion
with dna causing long-term effects even
in the brain
so during a cell division
can a spike protein
fuse with dna or can the messenger rna
fuse with dna
it's a good question you know and it's
just like i said it's just
something we haven't looked at um we
could look at it because
we have the capabilities by flow
cytometry to look at
sequential um generations daughter cells
you know uh daughter cells daughter
cells and see
you know how it gets distributed um
during cell division
but again we're we're out of time
we got it all right so glb says
this is primarily an immune system
disease
and so must be treated
absolutely it's immune disease and it
must be treated as such
you know i think the the virologic phase
went away a long time ago
so yes we are treating an immune disease
this is an important question sorry my
advice is echoing
uh how to fix long-haul loss of smell
two weeks plus
[Music]
again uh i think the one thing we can do
is relieve the inflammation that may be
pressing on
uh the nerves that are um responsible
for smell
um i don't know about you
dr b but i i just don't i don't see a
lot of loss of smell
in our long haulers i mean yes of course
i see them but
it's not when i look at the things that
come up first on the list
obviously still fatigue brain fog
tinnitus um you know arthralgias
arthritis
i mean i just don't see a lot of anosnia
uh anymore uh in long haulers the other
thing i find
really interesting is a lot of long
haulers are from this
march to june 2020 period
you know uh after we've seen thousands
and um you know i haven't polled our
office but
you know when i'm talking to people it's
this march to june 2020
uh time for um you know for these long
haulers
so i'm i'm eventually i'll go back and
look and see
what were we doing in terms of therapy
uh at that time
that may be uh contributing to this
got it just to comment on the
announcement side
what i have seen is that my acute covet
patients
sometimes linger on for a few weeks or
months
with a nosemia and high dose of vomiting
usually
reverses that within a couple of days
so here is a question from rima
what is a product prediction for post
wax long hauler
if it mimics long haul or post covet
could it be as high as 17 percent of
vaccinated people
is there an estimate
again i i don't see that kind of
percentage just by the number of
enrolled in our program um and like i
said uh in the beginning um it's
actually
treated pretty pretty simply and um
tends to go away very quickly
one more question and then we will stop
samantha says
how do you treat patients with fast
heart rates and heart heat intolerance
same way at the heart of it is
excused upon is
inflammation and it's either
inflammation
you know stimulating a response
certainly the heat intolerance is
probably because of the vasodil
dilatation but um i think the heart rate
um when we've seen our patients who are
you're reporting
recovery in all symptoms um they um
you know that that tends to get better
as well
got it is your spirit animal a bison
uh apparently um that that's what i
heard
um so i'll take it
excellent so uh one more time i want to
introduce
dr patterson's site uh i would keep
saying this so that there is no
confusion about this
i have no commercial financial
or any influence related interest
or engagement here
my interest with dr patterson and his
team's work
is to bring the long covered situation
the solution
to the masses and this is the site
the site is covered long haulers.com
there is another site and that is fsccc
and here there is a protocol as well i
would request that anybody who
is in a long-haul state please reach out
to dr patterson's group
try this protocol whichever way you want
to
but there is there is help out there
there is solution out there there is
research that
dr uh patterson just shared with us and
i hope that you all become better and
you recover very fast
and there is hope uh bruce any uh
comments before we
uh close well again it is about their
health but
um we're also pushing you know the
government to take care of these people
um you know the fact that they're just
recognizing that there's a thing called
you know long haulers or pask
um is mind-boggling
and um you know they need to step up the
plate
you know like the rest of us who are
working day and night like yourself
dr bean and dr corey and and
and the group over there at the flccc
and
uh doing great things over there and you
know we um
we're we're doing our part uh it's time
for
the government to step up the plate and
uh support these people and
provide the benefits that they need got
it
once again thank you very much for being
here thank you for sharing these
insights congratulations for this work
and congratulations to humanity
for your work which is going to give
benefit to people who are suffering
right now
thank you once again and hope to see you
again always a pleasure
look forward to it next time thanks