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To: BroJoeK
There was nothing "clever" about it, since what Lincoln told SC governor Pickens directly is exactly what was in Lincoln's orders to his ship captains -- no first use of force in resupplying Fort Sumter.

Are you forgetting that the Union government tried to sneak in troops and munitions with the Star of the West?

Firstly, the ship's orders (obviously made their way into the hands of the confederates) said that they would use force.

Secondly, the government had already tried to sneak more forces into the fort, and had been caught been deceptive.

Thirdly, when they launched their invasion of Fort Pickens, they had said they weren't going to do that, and yet they did. When they were caught (as woodpusher pointed out in the messages he posted above) they said, to paraphrase Harry Reid, "Well it worked, didn't it?"

Trusting the government is foolish. Safer bet is that they are lying.

Still true today.

214 posted on 02/19/2024 8:56:31 AM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp; x; jmacusa; FLT-bird; woodpusher
DiogenesLamp: "Are you forgetting that the Union government tried to sneak in troops and munitions with the Star of the West?"

Unarmed civilian transport SS Star of the West
January 9, 1861, off Morris Island, SC:

Star of the West was an unarmed civilian transport, sent by Doughfaced Democrat Pres. Buchanan to reinforce Ft. Sumter.
And this is an issue in your mind because of what?

DiogenesLamp: "Firstly, the ship's orders (obviously made their way into the hands of the confederates) said that they would use force."

First of all, there's no need to invent Confederates spying on Union orders -- for which there is no evidence -- when Lincoln himself directly advised SC Gov. Pickens of his plans, and Pickens had no need to see actual orders to Fox or Mercer to know that he, Pickens, intended to force Fort Sumter's surrender, period.

Second, Lincoln's orders were, in effect, "no first use of force", so the choice to start Civil War was up to Jefferson Davis.
And Davis already made his choices long before any of Lincoln's "war fleet" left New York.

DiogenesLamp: "Secondly, the government had already tried to sneak more forces into the fort, and had been caught been deceptive."

Just as the US today sends supplies and reinforcements as needed into Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, regardless of whatever the Cu-Coms may or may not feel about it.
It's irrelevant.

DiogenesLamp: "Thirdly, when they launched their invasion of Fort Pickens, they had said they weren't going to do that, and yet they did.
When they were caught (as woodpusher pointed out in the messages he posted above) they said, to paraphrase Harry Reid, "Well it worked, didn't it?""

All of that is 100% irrelevant, since Jefferson Davis had already ordered CSA Gen. Bragg to capture Fort Pickens on April 3, long before any Union "invasion" even started, and for reasons which had nothing whatever to do with your nonsense explanations.

And you perfectly well know all of this, but utterly refuse to admit the truth of it.

So, yet again, here are Jefferson Davis' own words:

In point of fact, Davis had made his choice to start Civil War as early as January 20, 1861, when he wrote to his friend, Copperhead Democrat former Pres. Pierce: The following words are not my own, but they do well express my opinions about the clear facts of this matter: To my knowledge, Davis never regretted starting the Civil War and never blamed anybody else for it.

262 posted on 02/21/2024 8:16:38 AM PST by BroJoeK (future DDG 134 -- we remember)
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