[yefragetuwrabrumuy]

That was my argument. Cause and effect are not simple to determine. However, a few generations ago, the *assertion* would be that Rome fell due to its moral failings. But that was a conclusion based on questionable evidence. Rome was never a terribly moral place. But likewise, most of the immorality was for those that could afford it.

At one point, I’ll note that the Roman government had to ban a common weed from anywhere near Rome, as it was common knowledge that it made a fine poison, especially by housewives tired of their husbands.

Not what you would call the most moral of people.

[0beron]

That was my argument. Cause and effect are not simple to determine. However, a few generations ago, the *assertion* would be that Rome fell due to its moral failings. But that was a conclusion based on questionable evidence. Rome was never a terribly moral place. But likewise, most of the immorality was for those that could afford it. At one point, I’ll note that the Roman government had to ban a common weed from anywhere near Rome, as it was common knowledge that it made a fine poison, especially by housewives tired of their husbands. Not what you would call the most moral of people. Actually, Rome was a terribly moral place before it became powerful, it was a national characteristic, if you will, which was part of the foundation of family life and the customs of their society, backed by the unwavering objectivity of Roman Law itself which became the basis for our own legal systems in the West. Cause and effect is fairly simple to determine. It is so simple to determine that even the Soviet Union considered homosexuality to be a corrosive vice and sought to cultivate that malaise in Target societies by way of inflitration and demoralization. It wasn't only homosexuals, but encouraging liberals to promote a doctrine of moral relativism, to erode the educational system and the guarantors of moral stability, like churches. I've found Yuri Besmenov's description of this process very interesting. He was a KGB defector who was in charge of promoting this cause of demoralization in the West, and there are quite a few of his tapes and videos available. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=915448763957391352# There's something in the nature of homosexuality and immorality which is poisonous, even if you don't believe that God calls down fire and brimstone on Nations which have embraced it, you can see that the various life ways surrounding it and its large acceptance involve a major denigration of the moral certainty and wholesomeness without which a country can not survive. Of course, the Soviet Union hasn't really fallen, which it appears to have done, despite its own legal and cultural hostility to the bourgeois vice of homosexuality, but that's another story.

[Cronos]

Rome did not fall because it adopted Christianity, nor that it lost its morals

you are wrong that they did not have morals. Their morals were based on pride in their position etc.

Rome, truly speaking, if you refer to the Empire, only fell in 1453 -- the "Byzantines" called themselves Romaoi (Romans)

Rome would have fallen after Septimus Severus and the disastrous 2nd century when it had a number of different emperors.

the roots go back to the end of the 5 good emperors, to the last, Marcus Aurelius who made the mistake of leaving the Princep position to his actual son instead of adopting a worthy heir as had done Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian and Antoninus Pius. Commodus was a disaster and when he was assasinated, then came the year of the 5 emperors. This set the position for Severus who bribed his way.

From 193 AD right up until 284 and the reign of Domitian, the Empire was divided, had invasions by Germanics, had numerous barracks emperors who never even entered Rome etc.

Add to this, the problem of the 1st century when the Han Empire of China attacked and pushed the Xiongnu (huns?), who pushed the Scyths/Sarmatians/Alans, who pushed the Slavs out of their lands in the Ukrain, who pushed the Germanics out of their lands in Eastern Germany and Poland, who pushed the Celts, knocking on the doors of the Roman Empire.

A united Rome under Domitian and Constantine were able to provide a formidable resistance, but Constantine didn't follow Domitian's perfect succession rule (of 2 Augustii and 2 Caesarii) and also moved the imperial capital to Constantinople. Slowly Rome became less important, and by the 400s was a backwater. The Germanics slowly moved in and in many cases were terrified of the ones following them (huns).

Rome the city fell due to the

1. lack of strong leadership,
2. Disunity
3. A tendency of later, weaker rulers to pay off the invaders (which only left them asking for more)
4. A tendency to move things to the East