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To: Heartlander
As an atheist (aka ‘nontheist’), do you believe that our consciousness (along with our universe) came from mindlessness? Do you believe that our consciousness sprung out of a universe void of purpose, value, morality, and intellect?

Our consciousness, yes. Our universe "coming from mindlessness"? Well, I have no evidence that the universe as a whole is anything but mindless anyway. If you mean it in the sense that there was no "mind" behind the existence of either the universe or our conscious selves, then no: I have no reason to think there was any.

When I say that the atheist believes the part is greater than the whole, I am basically saying that the atheist should believe himself or herself greater than where they believe they came from… Now back to point, it is incumbent on the atheist to prove that all came from mindlessness just as it is for a theist to prove ID. For the record, I am for letting science advance but my problem is the motive science currently has… aka prove mindlessness only.

But the claim that there is some unseen, undetectable person behind it all is the extraordinary positive claim. The mundane, default claim is that there is no such thing, because we don't detect any such overarching supernatural person in the course of our normal existence. So I have no burden to prove my negative, mundane claim. The burden's on you to support your non-obvious, positive claim.

323 posted on 10/01/2003 10:45:15 PM PDT by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: jennyp
But the claim that there is some unseen, undetectable person behind it all is the extraordinary positive claim. The mundane, default claim is that there is no such thing, because we don't detect any such overarching supernatural person in the course of our normal existence. So I have no burden to prove my negative, mundane claim. The burden's on you to support your non-obvious, positive claim.

Really? The Design Theory has been around for quite a long time. A majority of the people believed that life came from intelligence because it was self evident and obvious to them. Pssst… and a majority still do. Actually, it wasn’t until recently that science rejected an ‘undetectable person behind it all’. ID was self evident to science as well as societies in general. Science rejects ID – not people.

"Even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such an hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic."
Scott Todd, 'Nature" 401(6752):423 9-30-99

IMHO it is obvious that consciousness cannot come out of pure mindlessness. If one chooses to believe that consciousness does come from mindlessness; than please explain what is truth, morality, free will, joy, and intellect. I would believe these concepts to be purely delusional in a mindless universe.

Let me explain:
Let us say the universe is truly mindless and life is springing up left and right all around us without reason. A race of people from another galaxy invade our planet, destroy, devour, and leave. This race is void of emotion due to their mindless evolutionary process. Now, explain to me why and how what they did was wrong or evil. What truth could you offer this race? Do you think they would call you an ‘emotional creationist’ for believing in morality, truth, free will, and joy?

You see, in a mindless universe, you are the ‘emotional creationist’ because… hey, where else does it exist? Why would you expect it to exist anywhere else? Obviously you should be amazed that these things seem to exist at all – heck, for that matter, that you exist.

Let’s say that in some distant galaxy, due to some bizarre chemical reaction (mindless mind you) that rock-like creatures develop consciousness. They can’t reproduce, move, see, or communicate with each other to even know they are surrounded by others just like them – but they are conscious and don’t die. After billions of years, they want to die but they can’t. Hey, it’s just another creation from a mindless universe. It is not right or wrong – it just is… They do get to ponder ‘stuff’ longer than we do though…

So, lets get back to what the atheist and ‘current’ science is spreading as the gospel:

…. and on the 3 billionth day, nature accidentally puked forth chemicals, looked upon it and said, “this is neither good or bad, it’s just chemicals, and I shall form these chemicals in no specific image and without intelligence”.
Then plants, insects, fish, and man evolved from this puke without intelligence, each according to its own inane kind.
Now, the atheist knows this is only an allegorical story because… hey, nature doesn’t speak. That would just be ridiculous because nature is mindless. Yes, and since this is purely allegorical, one must look beyond the text and discover its inner meanings and lessons to us all – whatever that means in the whole scheme of things.

So if you believe this burden of proof is on me to prove to you what the majority see as obvious, you are wrong. You are responsible for your own beliefs. I cannot make you see or believe anything and never thought I could.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."

I believe you have your choice and right to believe that there is no ID behind it all. But if you are stating that my claim is ‘extraordinary’ and yours’ isn’t – you prove it.

332 posted on 10/02/2003 7:54:47 PM PDT by Heartlander
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