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If Secession Was Illegal - then How Come...?
The Patriotist ^ | 2003 | Al Benson, Jr.

Posted on 06/12/2003 5:58:28 AM PDT by Aurelius

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To: Grand Old Partisan
Patriotic posters on Free Republic who read your neo-Confederate rants know of someone who truly is vile and self-worshipping.

Only insofar as, in doing so, they also encounter my frequent adversaries and the vile servants of mammon that they quote.

801 posted on 06/29/2003 8:33:49 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
"worship at the feet of a government...sodomite perversity...mountain of salt and brimstone"

Please tell us that patrotic FReepers have not been wasting our time posting to the institutionalized.
802 posted on 06/29/2003 8:35:17 PM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: GOPcapitalist; Grand Old Partisan; 4ConservativeJustices
The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance, called "faith."

Well that's the kind of politician I want to follow < /sarcasm>

As for following back on your commentary with 4CJ, your premise has always been that all Democrats are liars. If the Democrats you despise so much created the textbooks, and the 4th grade textbooks you read from praise lincoln as practically walking on water next to Jesus Christ (someone Ingersoll didn't believe in), ergo the textbooks lie about lincoln. However all they seem to do is praise him.

So is the deification unjustified? How do we know what we can and cannot take out of these books to argue your point (never mind there's not anything worth taking)? Or should we just ask you for what's acceptable and argue from that? That's it!! History 101 by Grand Old Partisan. Do you actually have a doctorate in English? Or is parroting Jimmy McPhernut good enough to take on all arguments?

803 posted on 06/29/2003 8:35:17 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: Grand Old Partisan; GOPcapitalist
I don't want to get into the Lincoln debates, but is it/is it not true that in response to black soldiers in the Union army, the Confederacy declared that all white officers would be executed for fomenting servile insurrection, and that blacks(whether free or not) in uniform would be immediately returned to a state of slavery?
804 posted on 06/29/2003 8:36:01 PM PDT by Skywalk
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To: Skywalk
What's wrong with those quotes? You forget that, in his day, Ingersoll had to contend with religious leaders that more closely resembled Mullah Omar than Billy Graham.

The complete rejection of God is uncalled for even in response to the most hideously misguided of clergymen. Had Ingersoll truly objected to them, he needed only to direct his wrath upon them and point to the errors of their teachings. But Ingersoll did not do that. Instead he blamed God for what the worst of his professed adherents taught and then proceded to supplant the divine with a vile idolatry of the self.

805 posted on 06/29/2003 8:38:18 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
"The "republican" party of 1854-1877 sought to destroy the union, and are Republicans of the vilest sort."

The GOP defended the Constitution and saved the country from the Confederates and their northern Democrat sympathizers, yet you criticize them and venerate the Confederates, who fought against the Constitution and the country!?! Why should a sane person bother with you?

806 posted on 06/29/2003 8:38:37 PM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: Grand Old Partisan
Abraham Lincoln was the greatest President our country ever had, who carried out Republican policy

So high taxes, centralized governments, and military suppression of civilian dissenters from the state is "Republican policy"?

807 posted on 06/29/2003 8:39:30 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: billbears
While I have sympathies for the Confederate cause, can it honestly be said that by the time Frederick Douglass' sons enlisted in the Union army that the war was NOT about slavery?

Or are we to believe that Frederick Douglass was merely the Jesse Jackson of his day, a lover of big government?

Can't people on both sides appreciate the courage and honor of the men who fought, many not giving a thought to slavery, but acknowledge that the issue was not insignificant to the development of hostility and the outbreak of war?
808 posted on 06/29/2003 8:40:47 PM PDT by Skywalk
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To: Grand Old Partisan
So it does not trouble you that our government endorses the murder of children? It does not trouble you that our government has declared God unfit for the public realm? It does not trouble you that our government recognizes sodomy as a protected right? The United States Government has officially endorsed and practiced all of these policies.

You worship blindly at that government's feet and denounce those who object to it and the direction it is headed as "traitors." By contrast I prefer to employ my resources to changing those hideous policies that it currently practices. And unlike you, I will not supplant my worship of God with the state when the two conflict.

809 posted on 06/29/2003 8:45:31 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: Skywalk
Can't people on both sides appreciate the courage and honor of the men who fought

Honor is inherent in Southern tradition. Look up the origins of Memorial Day. Southerners offer respect and in some cases admiration for their fallen brothers across these United States.

It seems Southerners have respect for their comrades, but will not tolerate disrespect of their own from others. Why some conservatives attack the South (often here on FR) escapes me.

810 posted on 06/29/2003 8:49:43 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Skywalk
I make no effort to deny slavery's role in history and the war. I do object to those who overstate it, present it as an exclusively American phenomenon, and attempt to reduce the immeasurably complex war to a simple "noth=good/south=evil" statement centered solely around slavery. I also object to those, such as Partisan, who go out of their way to demonize and smear those who fought for the confederacy while, in doing so, calling upon the assistance of vile atheists like Ingersoll, avowed marxists like Jim McPherson, and left wing Bush-hating Democrats like Walt on this forum. People who do so aide and abett the causes of the radical left in a way that dwarfs by comparison even the most fanciful delusions they may have about assisting our cause with their work.
811 posted on 06/29/2003 8:53:19 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: stainlessbanner
Why some conservatives attack the South (often here on FR) escapes me.

Because we're the last bastion of accepted bigotry. You'll get fired for making a racist comment such as Sherman or Grant did, however everybody laughs when they make fun of the hick

812 posted on 06/29/2003 8:57:43 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: GOPcapitalist
Can Ingersoll have blamed God if he did not believe in Him? I mean, from what I've read of Ingersoll, he had a gift for hyperbole as well as the poetic(but that was the standard of the day.) Was he too stridently agnostic/atheist? No doubt, but he was also speaking the truth as he saw it, and in those quotes I see logic, both intellectual and moral. He does carry it too far at times, which is a fault of simplistic approach to the subject, but I rarely saw in Ingersoll's writing anything other than genuine belief and his foundations for it.

I also saw in his works a love of life, freedom, for the American way of life without titles and nobility but opportunity to work one's way up. As far I recall, Ingersoll was no proto-Marxist, but indeed someone more closely resembling myself about 5-6 years ago, too militant in his anti-religion stance, but definitely a defender of freedom.
813 posted on 06/29/2003 9:04:34 PM PDT by Skywalk
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To: Skywalk
Can Ingersoll have blamed God if he did not believe in Him?

That's a great contradiction of many atheists. They express nothing but scorn, blame, and hatred against the very thing that they profess not to believe in. He does carry it too far at times, which is a fault of simplistic approach to the subject, but I rarely saw in Ingersoll's writing anything other than genuine belief and his foundations for it.

Genuine belief is not enough to vindicate an error. At most it only mitigates the circumstances. There are people who genuinely believe in abortion, welfare, affirmative action, racism, genocide, and any number of ill-conceived and hideous items. But that alone does not make them any less wrong in those particular beliefs.

I also saw in his works a love of life, freedom, for the American way of life without titles and nobility but opportunity to work one's way up.

What you are witnessing is loaded rhetoric. Look at Ingersoll's life and you will find the very opposite of a freedom-loving individual. You will find a person who devoted much of his political life pushing for higher taxes and redistributionary tariffs, interventionist government economic policy, and, of course, the political subjugation of the south. You will find an individual who surrounded himself with and participated in the careers of some of the most corrupt and dishonest individuals to ever hold political office in this country - the regular Bill Clintons of the day or, put differently, people who assembled their fortunes by defrauding honest hard working individuals, the public treasury that is collected from those individuals, or both.

814 posted on 06/29/2003 9:15:08 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: Skywalk
You should read how stridently Robert Ingersoll criticized William Jennings Bryan's socialism while extolling William McKinley's Republicanism! For GOPcapitalist to call Ingersoll a proto-Marxist is beyond stupid.
815 posted on 06/29/2003 9:16:41 PM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: Grand Old Partisan
For GOPcapitalist to call Ingersoll a proto-Marxist is beyond stupid.

Exactly where did I call him a "proto-marxist," Partisan? I called him corrupt, vile, wretched, a statist, an atheist, and an economic interventionist - and he was all of those things. But I don't believe I ever called him a proto-marxist.

816 posted on 06/29/2003 9:38:45 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: Grand Old Partisan
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

"In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first." - Ambrose Bierce

817 posted on 06/29/2003 10:02:33 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
In some legal circles (usually those interested in re-fighting the Civil War), Ex parte Merryman is considered stare desicis (precedent setting), but not by most most judicial academics or most courts. The reason being are many.

The primary reason is that Merryman represents an opinion/ruling by a solitary member of the judiciary, aimed at the President (the President representing a co-equal branch of government with the Judicial Branch). Lincoln's ignoring the ruling falls into a class of acts called "Presidential Acts of Constitutional Interpretation." Lincoln was not the first President, nor the last, to ignor court rulings aimed at the Presidency. Besides Merryman, one could look at Andrew Jackson's refusal to enforce Worchester vs Georgia, 31 US 515 (1832). More recently, Richard Nixon refused to abide by lower court rulings, until threatened by the third branch of Government with impeachment.

There are several other factors that weigh against Merryman. (1) It has not been incorporated into statutory law. (2) It was not accepted by other branches of government. (3) It was the opinion of a lone judge and was unsupported by the US Supreme Court. (4) It was partisan in nature. (5) The act of ignoring the ruling has been supported by history and has itself been precedent setting. (6) It has been eclipsed by other rulings.

Unlike Ex parte Milligan (1866), which has established precedent, the Merryman case is usually only studied as part of history. Indeed, the case is recalled when discussing "the Merryman power of the Presidency." It has ramifications today. When a President commits US troops to conflict in an emergency, without having had time to consult the Congress, or obtain from the a declaration of War, the authority to enforce all aspects of US law is based on the principle of the President's power of constitutional interpretation.

I need to confess, that much of this post is not my own. I have been coached by a lawyer friend of mine who pulled out some of her old law school notes. I am also made aware of a recent book entitled the "Merryman Power and the Dilemma of Automous Executive Branch Interpretation." I'm going to try an find it, if it is still in print.

818 posted on 06/29/2003 11:11:32 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
"No. The LOSER is the party that appeals the case. Lincoln should have appealed if he disputed the outcome."

See my immediately preceeding post. When the Executive Branch refuses to enforce or comply with the ruling of an inferior court, that court may appeal to a higher court. Neither Taney, the offended judge, nor Merryman, appealed. Taney eventually sent his order to Lincon and Lincoln ignored it. Taney then published and distributed his decision to try and win in the court of public opinion. He lost there too. The people did not rise up to protest Lincoln's so-called "injustice," nor did the Congress try to codify the Taney decision. In fact, the Congress specifically supported Lincoln.

By way of history, why was Lt. Merryman arrested? Merryman was a member of the Maryland State militia. In early 1861, rioting occurred in Baltimore. Federal troops were committed to enforce the peace. In fact, the first Union deaths of the Civil War happened in that incident. The Army made an agreement with Baltimore and Maryland Civil authorities to remove the troops and "cool" the tense situation. Merryman led a group of fellow secessionist militia to scout and reconoiter the Federal troop withdrawal into Pennsylvania. He ordered a bridge burned so the Federals could not return to Baltimore the same way they had left. By taking up arms against the Federal government, Merryman earned his arrest and detainment.

819 posted on 06/29/2003 11:28:06 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
"... Lincoln failed in his Constitutional duty to obey the decision of the court."

Please cite the Article and Section where this "constitutional" duty exists.

820 posted on 06/29/2003 11:33:53 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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