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To: Dataman
The materialist lives in a room and refuses to look out the window.

What "window" would that be? Are you asserting that there's some "window" we can look out of and see God? If you know of the location of this window, like the secret passage in "Being John Malkovich", perhaps you should share it.

And if not, stop chiding people for "refusing" to look out of an imaginary window where you believe God would be found hiding if we all joined hands and imagined looking out the same window together.

It is not that there is no evidence for a reality beyond the universe, it is not that the laws of logic are violated, it is a simple refusal to believe.

Ah, "believe". So it comes back to Faith once again. You should just come right out and say so.

And you're suffering from a misconception when you presume that lack of belief can be due to a "refusal to believe". Belief is not something we can consciously choose to do or not do. Can you choose to regain belief in Santa Claus? Can you choose to stop believing in death just because it would be more comforting to deny it will someday come to you? Try it and see.

I never "refuse to believe" -- I wouldn't know how. Do you?

I used to believe in your sort of god. Then eventually, through no volitional choice of my own, I stopped believing in it, for exactly the same reason I can't believe in Hank. I simply couldn't maintain a belief in something so patently unbelievable and circular, no matter how much I "wanted" to believe it for its obvious comforts, and how much peer pressure there was to maintain it.

Belief is not something you choose. It comes or leaves unbidden, like love. Or gets involuntarily rejected like a badly matched kidney transplant.

"Materialism", as you so dismissively (and inadequately) call it, isn't what made me "refuse to believe" -- it was what was still left after my brain ejected the foreign body of deism.

Not quite as simplistic as your "I've got it all figured out" presumption, sorry.

The argument that can persuade a brittle materialist does not exist because he refuses to consider anything that does not conform to his comfortable self-centered reality.

Nonsense. For example, show me something supernatural and I'll easily be persuaded. Got any? If not, maybe that "comfortable self-centered reality" isn't such an unreasonable position after all.

Maybe you're just expressing your own inability to come up with any actual evidence or sufficiently persuasive argument for your "imagine a window with me" worldview.

That, of course, is your choice.

Why thank you.

But that choice robs you of the ability to point the finger at creationists and accuse them of intellectual stubbornness; it is hypocrisy.

BAHAHAHAHAHA! Thanks, this thread needed a good knee-slapper.

It also causes your "scientific" air of superiority to evaporate; you aren't interested in truth, only the support of your baseless suppositions.

You have not proven your case, and in fact there are many counterexamples.

But if your idea of "truth" is to assert that there are invisible windows we should be believing in, then don't be surprised when you don't find many takers among the "show me" crowd.

Finally, it exposes the defenders of darwin to be volitional rather than thoughtful; dishonest rather than truthful; unscientific rather than scientific, biased rather than fair. It means you lost the argument.

Don't mistake your premise for your conclusion, or your frustrations for reality.

And don't be so arrogant as to declare such a premature victory.

"You refuse to see the light!"

"What light?"

"The light of Truth!"

"Um, okay, where?"

"It's there if you just look!"

"Look *where*?"

"All around! It shines from the world around us if you but open your eyes!"

"Um... You sure?"

"Yes! *I* see it, why can't you?!"

"Don't be afraid of the guys in the white coats, they're here to help."

"You fools! Can't you see that you're just choosing to be blind? That you're stubborn and unscientific and dishonest?"

"For not buying your 'trust me on this light thing' proposition?"

"Yes!"

"You've *got* to be kidding..."

"Ha! You've lost the argument!"

"Wasn't much of an argument..."


761 posted on 01/21/2003 12:49:58 AM PST by Dan Day
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To: Dan Day
"Materialism", as you so dismissively (and inadequately) call it, isn't what made me "refuse to believe" -- it was what was still left after my brain ejected the foreign body of deism.

I assume you meant "theism." Regardless, a splendid sentence.

773 posted on 01/21/2003 4:32:02 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Purity of essence!)
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To: Dan Day; Phaedrus
What "window" would that be? Are you asserting that there's some "window" we can look out of and see God? If you know of the location of this window, like the secret passage in "Being John Malkovich", perhaps you should share it.

You know full well that the materialist limits his universe to matter and its motion despite evidence to the contrary.

Ah, "believe". So it comes back to Faith once again. You should just come right out and say so.

Yes, I'll say it. Evolution is a belief system.

And don't be so arrogant as to declare such a premature victory.

Arrogant? Yes. And it was fun. But the difference between me and the evos is that I admit it. I took the attitude of the opposition for two reasons: I couldn't get you guys to answer the questions and I thought you might like to see how it feels.

Declare victory? The lurkers decide who wins. Are the crowds moving to your side? We've all heard about what rats do on a sinking ship.

779 posted on 01/21/2003 6:03:59 AM PST by Dataman
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