Posted on 01/11/2003 9:53:34 PM PST by DWar
You are getting sleepy... sleeeeepy... You will feel an uncontrollable urge to cluck like a chicken the next time you hear the word "Hillary"...
Hey, I thought you said that you were "not interested in arguing with me" any more? Shoo.
Or do you consider gratuitous insults to be a different category?
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument. A: Yes it is. M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction. A: No it isn't. M: It is! A: It is not. M: Look, you just contradicted me. A: I did not. M: Oh you did!! A: No, no, no. M: You did just then. A: Nonsense! M: Oh, this is futile! A: No it isn't. M: I came here for a good argument. A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument. M: An argument isn't just contradiction. A: It can be. M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of
statements intended to establish a proposition. A: No it isn't.
Be careful, at one time the notion of the Earth circling the Sun "defied logic".
("Don't be ridiculous, if the Earth were moving we'd feel it, or fall off!")
Armchair "logic" is fine for brainstorming some ideas to test, but sooner or later you need to reality-check them or it's all just alchemy.
3: The third option is that matter was created.
Right, by the Big Bang. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
This option is not only logical, it is the best explanation of all and solves the difficulties of the first two explanations. This is the only option that has some evidence in its favor.
Indeed.
And my claim has not been refuted. If the entire system does not work the species dies.
First, I showed that you had completely overlooked the mechanism of developing placental feeding *in addition to* the pre-existent yolk-feeding method, not as an immediate *replacement* for it to which you had simplistically limited your thinking.
The problems of the sharks curious mode of reproductive development are similar, but not as great as those with human development, but they are also pretty large - including the implantation problem, and complete loss of the shell - again in one generation I guess. So this example proves nothing. What it does prove is that two totally unrelated species were able to do a quite extraordinary transformation, neither of which you can explain.
Structures or processes which may have been necessary novel developments for the first primitive placenta, which you claim (without any real support) are somehow impossibly difficult.
My whole post# 542 dealt with just that. It showed what scientists say, it has links for those who wish more information, it shows a picture which shows the significant differences between an egg laying circulatory system and a live bearing one. What more do you want?
If you can refute the statements made there by SCIENTISTS then go ahead and prove them wrong. In particular you need to refute the following:
This adaptation has entailed a dramatic restructuring of the maternal anatomy (such as expansion of the oviduct to form the uterus) as well as the development of a fetal organ capable of absorbing maternal nutrients.
The above alone proves my statement that it could not have happened in one generation. Your repeating what has already been answered in full shows quite well that you cannot disprove my statement but are trying to dishonestly claim you have. You cannot even give a detailed description as to how all these SYSTEMS which are clearly necessary in live birth could have arisen in a gradual manner - and no evolutionist authors have been able to do so either otherwise you would have cut and pasted it or typed it in. Your snow job does not cut it.
Of course they are, your answers to the problems I mentioned prove it. If evolution is not true then the gradual building up of mutations over time would not be true, so yes, the study assumes that evolutionist assumptions are true (and considering that not a single mutation creating greater complexity has ever been shown to have happened but numerous mutations simplifying a complex system have), that is a tremendous assumption with no basis in fact. There is no data showing that egg layers came first because the bones do not show reproductive data and neither does it show the DNA from millions of years ago when this supposedly happened. As to the time basis for the mutation differentials, claiming I am ignorant shows my statement is correct. Your claim that they can be calibrated by fossil dating when fossils do not provide DNA is just a plain lie. As to my point that evolutionists claim that mutations are there just to prove evolution and have no purpose except when evolutionists want it to have a purpose is quite correct. If differences in organism have no purpose then yes, one could claim that any mutations were just happenstance and could be used as a time scale. However, when the changes do have meaning one cannot say that and your insult just proves my statement correct. This is another example of evolutionists contradicting themselves to take both sides of a question. The whole thing is rhetoric, not science.
Oh, now that *definitely* deserves an award:
In case you missed it the *first* time you made your ridiculous mischaracterization of what I actually wrote, allow me to repeat my response:
Oh? Where? Quote me. Or retract your idiotic charge. Or just go away and leave the conversation to those with better reading comprehension.The challenge still stands. Pick one of the three choices.
Your foolish "analogy not homology" argument is tiresome.
Only because it took three tries for you to finally describe it correctly. You're wearing *me* out too.
Why not simply admit you have no idea what you are talking about.
Because I don't like lying.
How many peer-reviewed scientific papers have you published?
How many lame non sequiturs have you posted?
Please write me off again.
Very glad to oblige.
Those in between systems are also highly complex and require explanation which of course has not been given. The transformation of an entire reproductive system in any way is completely dubious because it has to work at every single point in the transformation and all parts have to be interrelated at every single point in the transformation and work together at all times. This is impossible to any reasonable human being but then, I have never accused evolutionists of being reasonable.
Truly, you're a legend in your own mind.
(It never ceases to amaze me how often creationists consider it a personal "victory" when someone concludes that they're not worth wasting time on.)
Semantics again.
Ah, yeah, "semantics". That's what it's called when you make an incorrect claim because you don't understand the field. I get it.
The subject under discussion was the transformation of the reproductive system from egg laying to live bearing. Has been all along. So I did not dot the I and cross the t, shoot me.
Sorry, no dodging allowed. This is not about you not "crossing your t's", this is about you making a ridiculous blanket statement that was quite simply enormously wrong, and is *still* enormously wrong if you go back and edit it to say what you now say you really meant all along.
Point is that not a single evolutionist writer (or for that matter any writer) is willing to give a detailed explanation according to the scientific facts about how the reproductive system of reptiles transformed itself gradually into a live bearing system.
Except that they have. So, as I pointed out, you're wrong, and you're an ignoramus for making a wild claim about something you clearly don't know the first thing about (i.e., what the literature says).
If any had I am sure you would have quoted from it.
Let me get this straight... You're admitting that you based your wild "no one's ever written about this" claim on nothing more than the fact that I didn't happen to quote any?
"Perhaps if you bothered to *read* something on the topic before you spout off, you wouldn't keep making a fool of yourself."
If they exist and you have read them, why did you not use them in this discussion???????????
Because I can deal with most of your silliness without leaving my chair -- it seems overkill to drive down to the downtown library and wade through the stacks just to dig out books and quote them for your amusement.
Go do your own homework before you start making any more laughable declarations about what you think "does not exist".
This is the wonderful thing about evolutionists - if something descended from another, it proves evolution. If it did not, it also proves evolution. If it is homologous it proves evolution. However, if it is homologous but does not show descent, then it is analogous and also proves evolution.
This is the "wonderful thing" about creationists -- if they can't beat you on the facts, they'll just make stuff up about you.
To correct your many errors, no, descent does not "prove" evolution, nor do evolutionists claim it does. Ditto for lack of descent. Nor does homology alone. Nor does "homology without descent", which is not only used as proof of evolution, it doesn't even make any bloody sense -- it's an oxymoron. Nor do analogous structures prove evolution.
Gore, you're batting 0.000 here. If you'd like to try to salvage anything of your dignity, you could always try to provide *examples* of evolutionists doing what you (falsely) allege they do. This ought to be amusing. Be careful, though -- make sure you understand what point someone is really trying to make before you present your examples...
In other words, heads you win, tails everyone else loses.
In other words, Gore shoots himself in the foot again.
Shows quite well that evolution is rhetoric, not science.
It might if you were actually accurately describing what evolutionary scientists say, but since it's not, all I have to say is...:
"How about a little fire, Straw Man! *cackle*"
One thing about analogous though. Analogous proves descent.
No, actually, it doesn't. You're really striking out tonight. Compare, for example, bird wings and bat wings. Analagous, but *not* the result of common descent from a winged ancestor of both birds and mammals -- which explains why despite superficial similarities, they are *very* different structurally.
It is extremely unlikely that following an evolutionary biological path creatures as far apart as fish and mammals would have similar structures.
What analogous-but-not-homologous structures do you see between fishes and mammals that you find "extremely unlikely"?
This is proof of an intelligent designer reusing parts which have been successful in other creatures which need it.
"Proof", eh? "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya.
If He "reused parts", then why is the shark placenta so different from the mammalian one? Why base them on different structures, for example? And why not give all the sharks placentas, instead of just a small number of closely related ones?
Instead, that looks like things hobbled together by evolution from different building blocks.
I think the example of the sharks, so closely related to each other shows design not evolution when creatures which arose at a similar time were able to develop such different reproductive systems.
You're welcome to think whatever you like.
"...FURTHERMORE, an examination of placentas even among different mammals shows several "stages" of sophistication, showing that gore3000's "all or nothing" belief is not only pure hogwash, but based on a fundamental ignorance of basic biology..."Though you desparately wish it weren't so, you were indeed making the case that the deep answers of evolution could be found the hamerhead-marsupial-cow-human placenta continuum.
No, I wasn't, but thanks for missing the point so thoroughly.
Here's the point again, although it was clear enough the first time (i.e. post #378): Gore3000's claim rested on his belief that any egg-laying to placental-birth transition would have to happen in "one generation", because of his mistaken premise that nothing "in between" would be workable.
So I proved him wrong by showing several "in between" methods which provably worked just fine, because different animals actually use them. QED.
(You know, this wasn't that difficult, *and* it has been re-explained several times -- what's your excuse for still being befuddled by it?)
As I've already explained several times (do try to keep up), this line of argument holds even if Darwinian evolution happens not to be true. It would be valid even if we were arguing the possibility/impossibility of converting egg-laying to placental birth via a) Lamarckian inheritance, b) multi-generational genetic engineering, c) God trying his hand at gradualism, d) etc.
So are you clear on the concept yet, or shall I explain it in even smaller words?
An as you correctly stated, only an idiot would believe this.
And yet, you seem repeatedly drawn to such a concept...
Yeah, nothing but bones, and, well, this sort of stuff.
Pay special attention to the parts on endogenous retroviruses and transposons, there will be a quiz later.
Small words, just for you:
1. If Gore wants to talk science, or prove science wrong, he needs to know some.
2. Only a fool thinks that is the same thing as having "published peer-reviewed scientific papers".
Are you a fool, or do you just play one on the net?
Clear?
I think your education on the matter is quite relavant
Then you should ask a more "relevant [sic]" question than the foolish non sequitur one you asked, shouldn't you?
I need to know: Are you trolling, or are you just naturally this obnoxious?
No, it's your vast lack of understanding about how such things are done.
And your calling my knowledgeable statement a "lie" is cheap and inexcusable.
But I see that you've finally retreated to the last refuge of those with no ability to formulate a better rebuttal: "lies, all lies!"
Easier than thinking, I suppose.
No, it's your vast lack of understanding about how such things are done.
And your calling my knowledgeable statement a "lie" is cheap and inexcusable.
But I see that you've finally retreated to the last refuge of those with no ability to formulate a better rebuttal: "lies, all lies!"
Easier than thinking, I suppose.
Do you admit that your original presumption that it "had" to occur "in one mutation, in one generation" was faulty? Yes or no.Note the "note"... Strike one. Care to try for two? Or would you like to actually directly address the questions this time?Do you admit that you erred when you presumed that mammals would have had to "develop" structures and processes which, oops, were already present in the egg-laying method of reproduction? Yes or no.
Do you withdraw your original claim that gradualistic development of placental birth would be "impossible"? Yes or no.
Note: This is a test of your intelligence and honesty. Respond accordingly.
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