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To: exmarine
The Christian Ego boggles the mind of the rational man. What of Buddhist monks high in the Himalayas who don't hurt a fly and have never heard of Jesus Christ? Are they doomed to the lake of fire?

And me... what about me? I'm "moral," I don't cheat on my wife, I'm not divorced (like so many christians), I give to charity, I help old ladies across the street, I'm not violent, etc, etc.

It's always been my contention (when arguing this point, anyway) that I, being an atheist since I was smart enough to figure things out, am actually of higher moral fiber than christians. I do good works, I'm a good guy, and to think I do all of this with no fear of eternal damnation hanging over me head! Therefore, I'm intrinsically moral, whereas the fearful christian is only moral because of the imagined repercussions (or so it would seem).
4,359 posted on 01/10/2003 9:07:28 AM PST by whattajoke (...looking skyward for that lightning strike, 30 years and waiting!)
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To: whattajoke
You do good works, comrade, but you lack party loyalty. Now tell me again, how many fingers am I holding up?
4,362 posted on 01/10/2003 9:14:17 AM PST by js1138 (What does LBB stand for?)
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To: whattajoke
You know, I have to agree with that 100%.

I believe that religion has a place, just NOT in my place.

Christianity is necessary as far as I am concerned to keep those that do not have the moral fiber to stay moral, to stay on the morally straight path because of it's intrinsic threat.

Fanatics and fundamentalists would be VERY frightening if they WERE NOT Christian, because I can just imagine where all that energy might go. Dangerous, just plain dangerous.

Thank goodness we have christianity to keep these types under control.

Whereas you and I, I believe, are indeed on the same wavelength, I am moral because I believe that is the right thing to do, not because I might rot in some internal fire if I'm not. I don't need that threat to stay moral.

So yes, I have to agree with the last part of your post as well. Never quite thought of it that way!! ;)
4,389 posted on 01/10/2003 10:38:23 AM PST by Aric2000 (The Theory of Evolution is Science, ID and Creationism are Religious, Any Questions?)
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To: whattajoke
The Christian Ego boggles the mind of the rational man. What of Buddhist monks high in the Himalayas who don't hurt a fly and have never heard of Jesus Christ? Are they doomed to the lake of fire?

And me... what about me? I'm "moral," I don't cheat on my wife, I'm not divorced (like so many christians), I give to charity, I help old ladies across the street, I'm not violent, etc, etc.

It's always been my contention (when arguing this point, anyway) that I, being an atheist since I was smart enough to figure things out, am actually of higher moral fiber than christians. I do good works, I'm a good guy, and to think I do all of this with no fear of eternal damnation hanging over me head! Therefore, I'm intrinsically moral, whereas the fearful christian is only moral because of the imagined repercussions (or so it would seem).

The problem with this reasoning is that it uses man as its starting point rather than God.

In the case of the Buddhist monk you argue that he can't be condemned because (a) he wouldn't hurt a fly, and (b) he has never heard of Jesus Christ (highly unlikely for a monk by the way).

In your own case you argue that you are basically moral and perhaps a good beal better behaved than many Christians besides, and so you believe condemnation likewise shouldn't apply to you.

Finally, you assert that Christians are only moral because they fear damnation. Ordinary mortals such as yourself are actually finer people, since you guys behave yourselves quite nicely without the threat of eternal punishment.

Let's see if we can clear all this up, shall we?

First, reality is not about you. It's about Him.

Second, your opinions of your own goodness and the relative goodness of others aren't worth squat.

The "best" among the human race are still seriously and fatally flawed creatures. There is no one who is truly good. There is no one who does not harbor evil to some degree in their heart. There is none of us who hasn't ever done something to be ashamed of. There is no one who has never lied. There is no one who is not tenaciously committed to his or her own self-interest most of the time. This is what we are - selfish creatures hell-bent on serving our own interests. And that is what is so damnable about all of us.

God says this is man's problem: he is a wilfull, stubborn creature, bent on serving himself, and is therefore alienated from God. It is this sinful condition which prevents man from enjoying fellowship with God here and now while he lives on the earth, and furthermore which is a barrier that precludes him from being able to spend eternity with God in heaven. We are a stench in His nostrils and odious in His sight. As we are, if we were even able to attempt to draw near to Him in our own strength, we would be utterly destroyed, both on account of the fact that The King dwells in unapproachable light, and that our immoral nature renders us unfit to be admitted into His presence. The naked truth of what we are deep down inside is repulsive and unacceptable to Him who Alone is truly Good.

That is why it is foolish to speak of the relative morality or goodness of one person over another. It is like two passengers on the Titanic arguing about who will sink and who will drown when the ship goes down, because one is fat and can float easier than the one who is thin. Ultimately they're both going to sink, regardless who can float better. Similarly, there is no human who has what it takes to approach a holy God on the strength of his own merits and secure the divine favor of God, gaining a place in heaven. God is accepting exactly no one on a performance basis.

Truth does not change because of lack of knowledge, either. If heaven is closed to sinners, then it is closed to all people, for all people are sinners. Awareness of this or lack of awareness of this does not matter in the least.

It is only because God sent His Son that any human has any hope at all of entering heaven. Our sins stand in the way, blocking us from God. Jesus Christ paid the penalty of our sin debt on the cross. However, that payment is credited to the accounts only of those people who believe that He is God, and place their trust in His atoning death.

Christians do not fear damnation, because that is no longer a possibility for them. Once they have accepted Christ as their savior, they are fully and completely pardoned, forgiven of every sin, and no longer subject to eternal damantion. Does every Christian then proceed to live a life which honors the God who saved him? Sadly, no. There are many who become short-sighted after their salvation and who choose to live pretty much the way their unsaved neighbors do. Those who do this are still saved and going to heaven, but are going to have precious little if anything to show for their lives, being largely lacking in service to Christ.

4,457 posted on 01/10/2003 1:39:46 PM PST by music_code (Faith alone saves, but faith that saves is never alone.)
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