Is Satan Bound Today?

BibleBB ^ | Mike Vlach

[CCWoody]

Correction to #770 ....POST-TRIB ~ xzins

Oh, that's a relief. I thought you were just insane and had no clue what you have been saying for months now.

BTW, have you actually figured out that Revelation 13:15 actually rules out Premillennialism with the way that you Premillennialist read it. It's funny when you actually see what is plainly written in the verse. The key to understanding what I am talking about can be found by looking at 1 Co 15:23.

Woody.

[CCWoody]

Would you say that the "Wicked" one spoken of above is Satan? ~ ksen

Well, if he is, then you need to kiss Premillennialism goodby. See if you can figure out why that is so.

Woody.

[Starwind]

You really need to go back and look at John 5:25-29 and Ephesians 1:18-2:7. No kidding. While you are at it, read 2 Peter 3 in a completely straightforward way.

I will do that.

I think this post is long enough. Maybe we will discuss the beheading idea at greater length after you abandon premillennialism completely.

Actually, I'm very appreciative of the length and detail to which you've gone. I would hope you would not make my advance agreement with you a prerequisite to further discussions.

Having said that, in light of your having opted for the allegorical explanation of beheading, would you elaborate on the explanation hinted at in your interpretation #3:

The beheading idea in Revelation 20:4 is not necessarily limiting us to physically dead Christians anyway. It definitely includes those who have died physically, certainly including literal martyrs, but the verse may very well be just borrowing a martyrdom scenario for beautiful metaphorical purposes in the vision--including metaphorical purposes involving Christians who are still physically alive!

What are those metaphorical purposes and what is Christ who is our spiritual head, teaching us in this metaphor of believers in Christ testifying to Him, rejecting Satan, and yet losing their metaphorical heads to an already bound Satan?

[gdebrae]

A lot of amills read the beheading as physical. But I don't think we should assume that this is the correct way to read it.

I would suggest the following reading of Rev. 20:4

"And I saw thrones, and they (all believers) sat upon them, and verdict was rendered about them:

and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded (all who have died in Christ) for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God,

and I saw such (all who still are alive in Christ) as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they had eternal life and reigned with Christ a thousand years"P>I would suggest this reading for two reasons. First - the descriptive phrases "for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God - such as worshipped not the beast nor recieved his mark - are found elsewhere in the book of revelation. These phrases can be used interchangeably for both are marks of faith. In Rev. 1:9 John says he was on Patmos "for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." Rev. 6:9 uses these two phrases for the souls under the altar, which is undoubtedly why they are used again in Rev. 20:4.

The phrases about worshipping the beast and receiving his mark are used primarily in reference to those living who follow the beast and his image. The refusal to do so is the mark of the believer living in the midst of this pressure or tribulation. See Rev. 14:9-12.

In the second place this reading closely parallels two other NT texts. First Romans 14:8,9 and secondly I Thess 5:9,10 "For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that,whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Rev. 20:4-6 is about the eternal security of all who belong to Christ by faith. Cf Romans 8:31-39. In the troubled times of the early church that was certainly a message they needed to hear. No matter what, in the final analysis, Christ and all who belonged to him, not satan and his followers, were truly victorious.

[gdebrae]

I should have included you in post 824. Please take a look.

[gdebrae]

In regards to John 5:24-29

I have long held essentially the same interpretation you have of this passage - as well as its application. I would like to make a couple of suggestions about parallel passages to this text. I find the entire chapter of Rev. 20 within John 5:24-27 talking about the realities of spiritual life and spiritual death.Rev. 20 could also be seen as an expansion of John 3:16-21.See also John 5:39,40 which speaks of those who refuse to come to Christ that they may have life.

Its interesting to read Rev. 20:12-13 in the greek text to see how the word nekroi, nekrous,(the dead) jumps out at you. The "dead are standing" and "the dead are judged". While one can assume a bodily resurrection there is not one mentioned in these verses. This is God's final verdict about those who have refused to believe in Christ.While they may be physically alive they are forever dead spiritually.

Parallels to John 5:28,29 are found in Rev. 11:15-18, II Thess. 1:6-10, Matthew 13:37-43 (where the wicked are raptured out of the kingdom) and Matt 25:31-46.

[ksen]

And how about this verse which flatly declares that the working of Satan is even right now currently bound by Him; that is, unless He has been taken out of the way:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

If the Wicked One to be revealed is Satan then this verse makes no sense. It would say that Satan's coming is after the working of Satan, well no duh.

Well, if he is, then you need to kiss Premillennialism goodby.

Well since the Wicked One of that verse is obviously not Satan, just him whose coming is after the working of Satan, then I guess I don't have to kiss my Premillenialism goodbye quite yet.

Have a great Thanksgiving Woody. I'm taking off for NH until next week. See you then. BTW, I'm still looking forward to your post explaining if a totally depraved person can even recognize if they sin or not.

[Starwind]

gdebrae writes to the_doc:
In regards to John 5:24-29 I have long held essentially the same interpretation you [the doc] have of this passage - as well as its application.

I believe the_doc holds the view that John 5:28,29 describes the rising of the good and the evil to judgment which corresponds to the "2nd resurrection" in Rev 20:11-15, which in the_doc's view is a physical resurrection of everyone, saved and unsaved. I asked as much in post #660 and the_doc concurred in his post #697, and then in my post #727 I layed it out visually.

Then here in the_doc's post #771 in response to my question:
So to sum up my questions, from the Amillenial viewpoint, when do the already dead believing Christians get bodily resurrected and found in the Book of Life, according to faith in Christ, not of works?

the_doc answered:
They are resurrected in a bodily way with all the rest of the physically dead--in the very same hour with everyone else. But Revelation 20 doesn't bother to emphasize this.

You state your view of John 5:28,29 applying to Rev 20 as
Its interesting to read Rev. 20:12-13 in the greek text to see how the word nekroi, nekrous,(the dead) jumps out at you. The "dead are standing" and "the dead are judged". While one can assume a bodily resurrection there is not one mentioned in these verses. This is God's final verdict about those who have refused to believe in Christ.While they may be physically alive they are forever dead spiritually.

So it would seem you and the_doc have different views of how John 5:28,29 describe the '2nd resurrection' in Rev 20:11-15.

Of course the_doc should clarify for himself, if he hasn't already by the time this gets posted.

[the_doc]

Thanks for that post. The point about "the dead" in Rev. 20 is especially important.

Aside to Starwind about Matt 25:31-46: This seems to be a good passage for explaining the idea of the judgment of believers "according to their deeds." (It strikes me that it appears to be strictly positive, positive in ways that surprise even the believers.)

[the_doc]

It seems to me that gdebrae and I have exactly the same view of the bodily resurrection in both Revelation 20 and John 5:28-29.

All the physically dead are raised--saved and unsaved. The spiritually dead (unregenerate) are condemned. The spiritually alive (regenerate) are rewarded.

However, I will concede that M. de Brae may see something else that I don't see.

[Starwind]

gdebrae write in post #826 Its interesting to read Rev. 20:12-13 in the greek text to see how the word nekroi, nekrous,(the dead) jumps out at you. The "dead are standing" and "the dead are judged". While one can assume a bodily resurrection there is not one mentioned in these verses. This is God's final verdict about those who have refused to believe in Christ.

This is in fact much closer to my own view of Rev 20:11-15, and would seem at odds with your view that All the physically dead are raised--saved and unsaved...The spiritually alive (regenerate) are rewarded.

[the_doc]

Interesting post. I will need to think about the proposed shift from deceased saints to still-living saints. You might be right. I have always read it as an enormous run-on sentence, catalogue style, since the "I saw" language occurs only at the beginning of the verse.

[the_doc]

I still think gdebrae and I are united on the point which you have raised.

Revelation 20 is a strange text in some ways, but I think it's clear from John 5:28-29 that the physical resurrection of the physically dead occurs all at the same time. (Revelation 20 merely keys on those who are condemned in their spiritual deadness.)

This is basically why gdebrae and I aren't premills. (Well, there are other reasons, of course, but...)

***

I'll get back to you after the holidays. Have a nice thansgiving!

[Starwind]

Thank you, enjoy your holiday...

[xzins]

Only 25....so you've got it easy this year?

[jude24]

At this rate, jude24 is going to get completely extricated from premillennialism while you are still stuck there. (And I'll bet Jerry_M comes all the way out before either one of you. Of course, BibChr and editor-surveyor are probably going to take longer than anyone else.)

Don't put me in the win column quite yet; I still want to see the kinks worked out ;-). (Hey, I did grow up in the denomination Darby started. ).

Assuming my current inclinations bear themselves to fruition, and I do join the amil camp, it will have been pretty gradual (well over a year in the making).

[gdebrae]

still think gdebrae and I are united on the point which you have raised. Revelation 20 is a strange text in some ways, but I think it's clear from John 5:28-29 that the physical resurrection of the physically dead occurs all at the same time. (Revelation 20 merely keys on those who are condemned in their spiritual deadness.)

I agree that there will be one historical resurrection event where both believer and unbeliever are bodily raised. That is the clear teaching of John 5 as well as other passages.Note for instance, Matthew 13:47-50 "So shall it be at the end of the age (eon, not cosmos):the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, (the rapture of the wicked) and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."

I think that Rev. 20:11-15, while relevant to the historic event, is showing us the spiritual dimension of one aspect of that event, namely the spiritual deadness of all who have refused to believe in Christ. This is God's final word about unbelievers. God's final word about believers is found in Romans 8:1,2 as well as Rev. 20:4-6.

[Starwind]

I think that Rev. 20:11-15, while relevant to the historic event, is showing us the spiritual dimension of one aspect of that event, namely the spiritual deadness of all who have refused to believe in Christ. This is God's final word about unbelievers. God's final word about believers is found in Romans 8:1,2 as well as Rev. 20:4-6.

I agree it is God's final word about all unbelievers. However the text is silent on believers. The text does not identify anyone at the white throne judgement found in the book of life. No one 'living' is standing there. So, just to be clear, do you interpret Rev 20:11-15 as including the bodily resurrection of all other believers (not included in Rev 20:4-6), those who are physically dead and saved in Christ?

This is the point where I think I see you and the_doc taking different interpretations.

[gdebrae]

as including the bodily resurrection of all other believers (not included in Rev 20:4-6), those who are physically dead and saved in Christ?

All believers are included in verses 4-6. There are no other believers aside from those who have died in Christ and those who are still alive in Christ. Parallel passages - Romans 14:7-9 and I Thess 5:9,10. No believer is left out of living and reigning with Christ, sitting on thrones (Eph 2), being made priest of God and being unafraid of and unaffected by the second death, which is eternal punishment.

the-doc and I are essentiall on the same page. We may slightly differ about the great white throne judgment. The typical amil position i was taught always said something like - simply because the believer is mentioned in verses 11-15 doesn't mean believers were not included.

I've come to see what I posted in #837. This is not first of all descriptive of an historical event but is making clear God's eternal verdict which is behind that event - that all those who refuse to believe in Christ are eternally dead.

Let me repeat. God's final judgment about all believers is found in verses 4-6. God's final judgment about all unbelievers is found in verse 5a, and 11-15. God's final judgment about satan is found in verse 1-3 and 7-10.

I understand the entire chapter to speak about eternal life and death and is not first of all speaking about specific eschatalogical events as we usually define them. However, what is said in Rev. 20 is relevant to the historical events and helps us to understand what they are all about.

John 5:28,29 describes an actually historical event. Rev. 20 properly understood, helps us to understand something about the significance and real meaning of that very real historical event.

[Starwind]

...We may slightly differ about the great white throne judgment....

Perhaps yes, a subtle (but I think you'll agree) important difference that further bears on the interpretation and application of John 5:28-29.

God's final judgment about all unbelievers is found in [Rev 20] verse 5a, and 11-15.

John 5:28,29 describes an actually historical event. Rev. 20 properly understood, helps us to understand something about the significance and real meaning of that very real historical event.

the_doc's view (I believe) as I've previously accumulated and posted here in #828 is that John 5:29 records 'those who have done evil rising to condemnation' (John 5:29b) which agrees with your view of Rev 20:11-15, and also records 'those who have done good rising to life' (John 5:29a) which would seem to disagree with your view of Rev 20:11-15.

the_doc has stated John 5:28-29 is the 'clear picture' through which Rev 20 must be viewed and also drew a parallel correspondence between John 5:28-29 specifically with Rev 20:11-15, which correspondences I clarified and the_doc concurred.

So what I wish to be clear on is that you are stating that Rev 20:11-15 is "God's final judgment about all unbelievers" while the_doc's correspondence of Rev 20:11-15 with the 'clear picture' of John 5:29a (the 'good rising to life') would contradict.

You also point out John 5:28,29 "describes an actually historical event." So again if John 5:28-29 is the 'clear picture' that applies to Rev 20:11-15, you seem to further imply that Rev 20:11-15 is likewise a historical event. I don't think you mean that Rev 20:11-15 is already history, do you?