Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ
THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.
A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.
"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."
Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.
"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."
About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.
"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."
Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.
"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.
"That's all it ever was."
Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.
"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.
"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."
Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.
"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."
Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.
"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.
Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.
"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!
"They were protected."
Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.
After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.
Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.
"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."
Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.
"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."
free dixie,sw
i simply prophesied that your HATEfilled/RACIST attitude would get you banned.
the use of smallcase letters is a COURTSEY to our tribal traditions & beliefs.
if you are incapable of understanding a concept that simple, you are also STUPID, in addition to being a FOOL/BIGOT!
free dixie,sw
FRANKLY, i want you here to beat up on & abuse, (it is likely a character flaw of mine to enjoy exposing the RACISM of damnyankees & fools!), thus i wouldn't ask anyone to do so.
free dixie,sw
RAVE ON. you too serve the dixie LIBERTY cause.<P.free the southland,sw
RAVE ON. you too serve the dixie LIBERTY cause.
free the southland,sw
RAVE ON!
free dixie,sw
stand watie did not ask to mods to reprimand you. I did.
You were politely asked by stand watie to refrain from capiltalizing his screen name. You refused. I politely asked to you refrain, to which you refused. If you were native American you would understand. I had hoped that you simply had a shred of decency within you, but this thread is ample evidence of the lack of the same.
It's one thing to debate in an open forum, the facts will speak for themselves, but in all honesty, it is hard to find anything to like in someone who considers the rape, sexual assault and sodomization of southern women and children to be justified, and that destroying their homes, crops and livestock, the theft of all their valuables to be expedient as war measures and not as the war crimes they truly are.
Again, I ask simply that you refrain from capitalizing his screen name. It's a cultural thing, one that means much to those of us privledged to claim native American ancestry.
respectfully,
4CJ
He has stated it was offensive to him, and it is offensive to me. What you have done is a great dishonour to stand watie - the Freeper - and to Stand Watie - the Confederate General.
I did not ask for you to be banned, I specifically requested otherwise - that the mods would simply ask you to respect his wishes in this regard. I wish that you were man enough to do the same.
Confederate troops did these things at about the same rate as Union troops and to their own people, so was Lee a war criminal?
Same thing.
the use of smallcase letters is a COURTSEY to our tribal traditions & beliefs. if you are incapable of understanding a concept that simple, you are also STUPID, in addition to being a FOOL/BIGOT
You just cry over silliness.
After hearing your crying about something as silly as capital letters.
FRANKLY, i want you here to beat up on & abuse, (it is likely a character flaw of mine to enjoy exposing the RACISM of damnyankees & fools!), thus i wouldn't ask anyone to do so.
Your posts called for it, two people obliged apparently.
Whatever dude. Anyone that thinks that capital letters is racist is out of touch with reality and is taking PC way too far. I'm American and Americans use capital letters. I amazed you guys can't see how silly your complaints are. Pressing abuse for capital letters...hilarious.
It's one thing to debate in an open forum, the facts will speak for themselves, but in all honesty, it is hard to find anything to like in someone who considers the rape, sexual assault and sodomization of southern women and children to be justified, and that destroying their homes, crops and livestock, the theft of all their valuables to be expedient as war measures and not as the war crimes they truly are.
I find Sherman's tactics necessary to win the war and save lives. Rustbucket (a person on your side of this argument) said that Sherman called for his men to not commit these crimes, but some will and there's no way to stop it...just as some confederate soldiers committed these crimes against their own people.
Again, I ask simply that you refrain from capitalizing his screen name. It's a cultural thing, one that means much to those of us privledged to claim native American ancestry.
Bull, it's nowhere on the internet that I've seen. He's as white as I am, I've seen his picture, he's just claiming victim status so he can whine, PC that he is. Stand Watie. Boo!
respectfully,...
You could at least be honest. You have no respect.
He did out in the open. You and another obliged.
He and I might swap 2 messages a year.
I don't blame you there.
What I did was because I find you continued abuse to be offensive.
Abuse?! Capital letters is abuse?! Talk about PC. Is English road signs also abuse? Should we go all Spanish so we don't offend Mexican immigrants? Should we teach ebonics in school so we don't offend Jesse Jackass types? You guys have lost touch with reality. Anyone that's afraid of capital letters needs to get with the program and realize that this is America.
He has stated it was offensive to him, and it is offensive to me.
Who cares. You're just being silly to whine about captital letters.
What you have done is a great dishonour to stand watie - the Freeper...
In case you haven't noticed, Stand Watie the freeper has done nothing but call me every name in the book since he got here, and long before I started teasing him about his weird phobia.
...- and to Stand Watie - the Confederate General.
You guys show respect for Lincoln and Sherman, and I will for your heros. Can you even show me a link proving what you say about capital letters?
I did not ask for you to be banned, I specifically requested otherwise - that the mods would simply ask you to respect his wishes in this regard. I wish that you were man enough to do the same.
Stand Watie has said terrible things about Union soldiers, Lincoln, Sherman, northerners, Eisenhower. I don't respect people who don't respect others and don't give a rat's behind what offends him, especially something that breaks American traditions, and capital letters is the part of the American way of life. From his first post he has been personally attacking me, unprovoked at first. Why should I care about his silly phobias?
Your pathetic sniveling only has #3merit in #3world.
I was not talking about everyone. I was talking about #3Fan.
In #3Fan #1740, -YOU- said to Gianni: "Nolu brought up the word "liar" first IIRC"
As I proved, and anyone can verify by reviewing the first 151 messages on this thread, the word "liar" was first brought up by none other than #3Fan.
#151 #3Fan to Gianni: "So deception by omission is your game when you don't "outright lie. (By "you" I mean neoconfederates)"
[#3Fan] #1882 I did. :^)
No. Actually you did not. Had you made even a slight effort to find out what the word means, you would have learned that it is a legal impossibility to slander anyone with written words. What did you do? Look it up in #3Dictionary?
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