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“men who have robbed God of His glory & applied it to themselves”

How about “men who think or claim to have robbed God of His glory & applied it to themselves”?

There are lots of such folks, some abide in ‘rubber rooms’ where the nice men in the long white coats adjust their straps and their meds as necessary.

I have always wondered why some men can claim to be the annointed of God and others believe them when the “annointed one’s behavior contradicts both scripture and the last six of the Ten Commandments.”

On the other hand, someone has to separate willfully ignorant fools from their money and rights

Here, I think, is the difference between us. I see G*d as having existed before all else, and called “all else” into existence.

I think in part we're still talking past each other. Of course, we agree on this premise. But our God is a revelational God. (Of course, He's also a God who can hide Himself). But He does not hide the manifestations of who He is; and He's chosen to reveal Himself in the written, the spoken, and then the Living Word (the latter being His Son whom He sent).

From that, I conclude that what man says is not all that important, let alone able to change the nature or attributes of G*d.

But you may be neglecting to realize that God has also chosen at times to speak THROUGH man. Yes, anything that is ultimately "man sourced" "is not," as you say, "all that important." But God takes false prophets seriously precisely because they misrepresent Him, and His reputation.

Obviously, God's attributes such as His eternality, immortality, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, self-existence cannot be touched by man.

What I'm talking about more is those attributes the theologians for generations have called God's "communicative (social) attributes." Those attributes are not exercised in a vacuum. Angels & humans for example, are recipients of His love, His righteousness, His mercy, His justice, His grace, His hospitality, His provision, all His interactive characteristics.

Some of those characteristics, like love, were not dependent upon any of His creatures. Since He is a tri-une God, God Himself is a social entity. Yet if angels or humankind didn't exist, upon whom would God exercise mercy?

Bottom-line, I think the best way to describe how we might be talking past each other is to look at God's glory. Now, if man didn't exist, or if angels didn't exist, would He still be receiving glory? The answer to that is yes. Man cannot rob His glory in that way. Jesus himself said that if God wasn't worshiped, the stones themselves would cry out. God will not ultimately be "robbed" of His glory.

But that doesn't mean that there are not specific angel-turned-demons & men who have robbed God of His glory & applied it to themselves or to idols. Do you see how both ideas are true?

When I have to answer that question in the bar “You’re from Utah? You must be a Jack Mormon?” I simply challenge the idiot by saying “what’s a Jack Mormon?” Then I remind them that they were in reality sympathizers with and even possibly members of the mob at the Carthage jail.

Also, pretty soon I am going to demand reparations because of all that land that great great Grandfather Erastus lost whilst (yes I used that good legacy/heritage word) being run off by the mobs and having to sell everything he had at a loss. And I want an apology from those dirty bounders (yes another legacy word) that have been calling me a jack morgbot. Can’t get no respect!

No matter where I go, I seem to be able to find a “connection” though my Mormon legacy. In a way, it has been a source of grounding for me in a world that often seems so foreign and strange. BUT since I found Christ, I am much more able to connect to the body of believers where I have truly found a secure, friendly and loving place with my true brothers and sisters.

You are so right. There is nothing sweeter than the cross!

Sixth-Generation Mormon
_________________________________________

At our age that’s as far back as you can go...

As a person with a REAL McCoy Mormon background, you speak with authority when you post mormon verses and info...

You are the SOURCE...

This author has roots in my hometown. His grandmother and my grandmother were bestest friends.

Thanks CC....It's strange that to some, the "legacy" seems to follow like a stain on your soul.

Even though I moved away from the mormon enclave I was born into, have not been mormon for many years, raised my children outside the mormon church and have had next to no contact with anyone from that place, including with some of my distant relatives, the "legacy" pops up every now and then....for instance, my daughter told me that a young man was recently employed at her place of employment in a city quite far removed and when she casually mentioned her place of birth, he was most anxious to figure out just where my "place" was in the legacy...which was third cousin to his grandmother.

It seemed quite important to him to "place" me in the box.

I wonder why this is? I didn't evn know his grandmother.

. . the world behind me, the cross before me. . . .No turning back, no turning back.

“. God doesn’t exist in a vacuum. He exists within revelational words, phrases, sentences about Who He is.”

Here, I think, is the difference between us. I see G*d as having existed before all else, and called “all else” into existence.

From that, I conclude that what man says is not all that important, let alone able to change the nature or attributes of G*d.

In my own case, I apply a simple test; Is this ________ congruent with the last six of the Ten Commandments?

It is perhaps simplistic, but as analytical tools go, it does have remarkable predictive capability.

I have been hesitating about posting on this thread since it was posted. This author has roots in my hometown. His grandmother and my grandmother were bestest friends.

I understand where he is coming from - the legacy of Mormonism will always be mine. The culture is strong in these little Mormon enclaves where my ancestors and Mr. Church's battled the elements isolated from the world and even the larger Mormon cultures of Salt Lake City OR Utah County. In ways, I am proud of the dedication of my LDS fore bearers - for their strength, their tenacity, their ability to adapt, and love and care for one another in poverty and need. Legacy is just another of the Mormon titles I carry:

Born in the Covenant Mormon
Sixth-Generation Mormon
Jack Mormon
Apostate Mormon
Ex-Mormon
...Legacy Mormon

Nice to see you again Glade. I spoke with you once on the telephone about my daughter and her education within your field of study.

I am what this author would call a legacy Mormon, but in actuality I am now an evangelical Christian - I have left everything of Mormonism behind....except the legacy!

What I, you, or anyone says, changes the Divine not at all, or so I suspect.

So now you're taking this to some deep philosophical Q? (If a tree crashes in a forest, does it make a sound?) If all of humanity brings down "God" to their level as a man, does the sound of words to describe matter?

As the Obamassiah said, “Words, just words”.

If this was so, Jesus would never have been identified as "The Living Word"

Man’s descriptions of the Divine are merely descriptions.

Words mean things. To think that communicative mankind could just ramble & scramble definitions to no end, making words & descriptions all "mumble jumble" -- with no communicative effect among both each other & a communicative God is at root, a word anarchist.

To assume that removing part of some description actually changes that Divinity is arguably presumptuous.

Let's say someone assumes your identity & posts on your behalf online. Let's say he does it broad enough to effect your reputation locally, nationally and internationally. Of course, you haven't changed at all. But your Name has. Your reputation has. For all effects & purposes, whatever name underneath "GladesGuru" would be corrupted. Distorted. Twisted. Misrepresented. A pretense. A Wizard of Oz. No to little basis in reality.

Whatever is represented falsely would be robbing you of your character attributes. God doesn't exist in a vacuum. He exists within revelational words, phrases, sentences about Who He is.

Man’s descriptions of the Divine are merely descriptions. To assume that removing part of some description actually changes that Divinity is arguably presumptuous.

As the Obamassiah said, “Words, just words”.

What I, you, or anyone says, changes the Divine not at all, or so I suspect.

Now I am rather mystified. How can a mere mortal man take away anything from G*d? It would appear to be impossible, by definition.

But that's just it. Rob God of His attributes = redefining Him in twisted, corrupt ways.

So the Q then becomes: If you distort God enough, are you really describing the true God, any more?

(And that's where I would answer, "that at some point, if you take away who God is at His core, that's no longer the God of the Bible that we're talking about.")

A God who isn't just = is no God.
A God who isn't merciful isn't the God of the Bible

“If we rob God of either Justice or mercy then God ceases to be God.”

Now I am rather mystified. How can a mere mortal man take away anything from G*d?

It would appear to be impossible, by definition.

Want to know what the BYU QB said to earn this columnist's poem? (See MadMax'sThunderABlunder )

Here's the short excerpt he said aimed at Utah university: "I think the whole university, their fans, and their organization is classless. They threw beer on my family and stuff last year, and they did a whole bunch of nasty things, and I don't respect them, and they deserve to lose."

His "apology" the next week only mentioned that he didn't mean to indict the entire> university.