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New Mexico cops detail broomstick hazing at H.S. football camp SEPTEMBER 12--A quartet of boys attending a high school football camp were assaulted last month by broomstick-wielding teammates in a violent hazing ritual that could lead to charges against the assailants and the New Mexico squad's coaches. According to police interviews, the attacks were targeted against freshman and sophomore members of the Robertson High School team, which spent four days last month at a pre-season camp in San Miguel County. During the attacks, each of the younger athletes was pinned to the floor of a cabin and had a broomstick...

SEPTEMBER 12--A quartet of boys attending a high school football camp were assaulted last month by broomstick-wielding teammates in a violent hazing ritual that could lead to charges against the assailants and the New Mexico squad's coaches. According to police interviews, the attacks were targeted against freshman and sophomore members of the Robertson High School team, which spent four days last month at a pre-season camp in San Miguel County. During the attacks, each of the younger athletes was pinned to the floor of a cabin and had a broomstick jammed over their shorts into their anus, according to reports...

Three paramedics at Newark's University Hospital were fired this week after grainy images taken by a cellphone camera surfaced showing two student interns garbed in white sheets to look like robes of the Ku Klux Klan. Officials at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, which operates the hospital, and its emergency medical services unit, called the episode "ugly and abhorrent," and "not be tolerated at any level." University president William F. Owen, who disclosed details of the incident on Friday, said one of the paramedics offered to resign, but was terminated instead on Monday. Two others were...

NEW ORLEANS -- Ten members of Tulane's Eta chapter of the Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity were in jail Wednesday, charged with aggravated battery from hazing incidents. At least 10 pledges to the fraternity were burned during hazing incidents according to an attorney for one of the pledges. Attorney Frank D'Amico Jr., who represents one of the pledges, said more than 10 men were burned. He said at least two pledges were severely burned and reported the attack to police. D'Amico said his client suffered second- and third-degree burns. New Orleans police said the incidents took place April 25 and 26....

The organization was supposed to make him a better man. Instead, his parents say, it made him a dead one. The ManKind Project offers trainings which support men in developing lives of integrity, accountability and connection to feeling." — From The ManKind Project Web site "They had three naked men bring out two chickens that they hit with a ­hammer." — Michael Scinto in a letter to a ­Madison County sheriff's deputy. Michael Scinto was literally scared to death. On an isolated 11-acre compound down a winding, country dirt road 110 miles north of Houston, Scinto watched as the leader...

Two Georgia teenagers were recently arrested in connection with what one student's mother said was a high school hazing ritual, according to WJXT-TV. The woman said members of the Charlton County High School golf team gave her son a contusion so painful she had to take her 13-year-old to the emergency room for treatment. She said the prank has made her son afraid to go back to school. The 13-year-old did not want to be identified, but his mother, Carol, agreed to talk about the incident because she said other parents should know what happened. "Sometimes people don't know when...

As mountain lions move closer to urban areas, the Colorado Division of Wildlife is proposing a pilot project to teach the cougars a lesson about humans and habitat: the DOW recommends using hazing techniques to lower the animals comfort level around people. If approved, the Front Range Cougar Pilot Project would be implemented in two phases in Boulder and Jefferson Counties. First, wildlife officials would trap six cougars in the corridor between Lyons and Interstate 70. Those cougars would be collared with GPS tracking devices. The movement of the mountain lion would be recorded eight times a day. The second...

Hazing Leads To Prison For Fraternity BrothersPOSTED: 2:25 am EST January 30, 2007 UPDATED: 2:32 am EST January 30, 2007 TALLAHASSEE -- A Florida judge said she wanted to send a message with the state's first prosecution under a new felony hazing law. Circuit Judge Kathleen Dekker gave two Florida A&M fraternity brothers two-year prison terms for paddling a pledge with wooden canes. Dekker said one year terms might have been sufficient to punish the two Kappa Alpha Psi members but she added the second year to make sure their sentences served as a deterrent. One of them was accused...

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Two Florida fraternity brothers were convicted of felony hazing Friday in a trial seen as a test of a new law restricting the practice, but jurors were unable to reach a verdict on three other defendants. The five Kappa Alpha Psi brothers at Florida A&M University, the first people charged under the anti-hazing law, were accused of punching an aspiring member, Marcus Jones, 20, of Decatur, Ga., and beating his buttocks with canes during an initiation, or aiding those who did. Jurors found former chapter president Michael Morton, 23, and Jason Harris, 23, guilty of breaking a...

LOS ANGELES — The city's fire chief announced his retirement Friday amid a racially charged furor involving a black firefighter who was served spaghetti mixed with dog food. Chief William Bamattre, 54, said the scandal had "political implications beyond the scope of the Fire Department." "I have become the focus of the debate and that is to the detriment of the LAFD," he said. He planned to step down Jan. 1. The firefighter who was fed the spaghetti claimed that it was racial discrimination and that he was harassed after reporting it. But other firefighters insisted it was an ordinary...

LOS ANGELES - The emotional debate over whether Los Angeles should pay nearly $3 million to a black firefighter who had his meal laced with dog food by white colleagues has put the spotlight on a larger issue that often goes unmentioned, the hazing rituals that are part of a macho culture that is the firefighter's world. Almost immediately after the City Council voted 11-1 earlier this month to award Tennie Pierce $2.7 million to settle his racial discrimination lawsuit photos surfaced on the Internet of him engaging in other firehouse pranks. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa took notice and vetoed the...

ORLANDO, Fla. -- Another University of Central Florida fraternity is under investigation after a second alleged hazing incident at the school, Local 6 News has learned. UCF police said they recently caught a student with his pants down in a hallway of the Health and Public Affairs building. The student said it was related to a hazing incident involving the Alpha Tau Omega fraternity where pledges were being spanked inside a classroom, Local 6 News reported. There is no word this weekend whether the fraternity will face any disciplinary action. Last week, school officials investigating an apparent hazing ritual at...

ORLANDO, Fla. -- School officials investigating an apparent hazing ritual at a fraternity house on the University of Central Florida campus in which pledges were found in diapers, fairy wings and women's panties told Local 6 News that there is evidence that several of them may have been sexually assaulted. The Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity at UCF was suspended by its national office and has become the subject of a police investigation after three students were recently found so drunk that they had be rushed to a hospital. University police, acting on a tip, said they noticed loud, aggressive screaming...

Catholic University Probes Women's Initiation Party That Included StripperWASHINGTON — Catholic University is investigating its women's lacrosse program after photos were posted on the Internet allegedly showing a male stripper at a freshman initiation party. "If the evidence demonstrates that any of our current students willingly participated in these activities, appropriate disciplinary action will be taken,'' athletic director Michael Allen said in a statement. Allen said that neither he nor coach Kristine Manning was aware of the party until Wednesday morning. He said an investigation began immediately. "The president and I will meet with all the coaches at the university...

Four fraternity members accused of making pledges wear cowboy clothes and suffer homophobic insults in a "Brokeback Mountain"-themed initiation ritual face $1,000 fines under the state's anti-hazing law. University of Vermont police said the civil penalties stemmed from a March 2 party at the Phi Gamma Delta house based on the movie about gay cowboys. "What they did, which I felt was homophobic in nature, was inappropriate," UVM Police Chief Gary Margolis said. Phi Gamma Delta's alumni advisers have denied accounts of anti- homosexual remarks and heavy drinking at the party. Chittenden County Deputy State's Attorney Ed Sutton said his...

Bremerton -- Seven sailors from the submarine USS Columbus face special courts-martial in connection with alleged assaults and hazing of two fellow crew members. One victim allegedly was attacked over a seven-month period ending in March, when he reported the incidents to Naval Base Kitsap security and to the Naval Criminal Investigative Service. His five alleged assailants are charged with various offenses under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The charges include assault, hazing and dereliction of duty, according to Lt. Herlinda Rojas, a Navy spokeswoman. The five sailors range in rank from third to first class petty officer. A...

One of the pleasures of having a vibrant local press is the colorful stories about the community that get missed when focusing on the national and international news. The St. Paul Pioneer Press reports today on an agricultural fraternity at the University of Minnesota that has been suspended and may be disbanded for violating the university's ban on hazing. The FarmHouse Fraternity apparently has pushed the Midwestern envelope a little too far -- say, all the way to San Francisco: Hazing by the suspended FarmHouse Fraternity at the University of Minnesota included hitting members on their backside with a leather...

Prosecutors in the Russian republic of Bashkortostan have opened a criminal investigation into the death of a conscript in Ufa. Russian news agencies report that Nursullah Dautov was taken to hospital last week, two days after allegedly being beaten by fellow soldiers. His death comes soon after the savage beating of another Russian serviceman shocked Russian public opinion and prompted Russia's parliamentary Defense Committee to discuss the problem of hazing in the military today.

Russian Hazing Victims Sent To Moscow Hospital Galina Sychyova, mother of hazing victim Andrei Sychyov, holds a picture of her son (file photo) (TASS) 7 February 2006 -- A Russian conscript severely beaten up by fellow servicemen was flown to a military hospital in Moscow for further treatment today. Andrei Sychyov had his legs and genitals amputated after he was tortured by older servicemen over the New Year holidays. Sychyov was flown today from a hospital in the Siberian city of Chelyabinsk, where his unit is located, to the military's Burdenko hospital in Moscow. Doctors did not make any immediate...

Russian official orders hazing probe MARIA DANILOVA Associated Press MOSCOW - Russia's defense minister on Friday fired the head of a military academy where a brutal hazing incident resulted in a conscript having his legs and genitals amputated. Maj. Gen. Viktor Sidorov was also charged with abuse of office for concealing the crime, the chief military prosecutor said. Pvt. Andrei Sychev, 18, of the Chelyabinsk Tank Academy in the Ural Mountains region, was beaten and tortured on New Year's eve, causing severe injuries and a gangrenous infection, which led to the amputations. Several other soldiers were beaten in the same...

The brutal hazing of a young army conscript that resulted in several amputations has sparked widespread indignation in Russia. The chief military prosecutor has harshly condemned the incident, calling it the most "cynical" crime he has witnessed in his career. Rights campaigners, however, say the case merely highlights a rampant practice in the Russian Army and voice little hope it will help curtail violence against conscripts. MOSCOW, 27 January 2006 (RFE/RL) -- If doctors had not braved the army's code of silence, the fate of 19-year-old Private Andrei Sychev would probably never have been brought to light. Soldiers' Mothers Committee,...

MOSCOW (AP) -- Military prosecutors and top officers on Thursday pledged a thorough inquiry into one of the most brutal hazing incidents in the Russian military in years - an 18-year-old soldier whose legs and genitals had to be amputated because of beatings and torture by fellow servicemen. Human rights groups assailed military officials for condoning rampant bullying and warned such crimes would persist until the nation abolishes the draft in favor of an all-volunteer army. Doctors said Pvt. Andrei Sychev's legs and genitals were amputated after the New Year's Eve incident at the Chelyabinsk Tank Academy, in which older...

Angry dad takes son's bullying teammate to court: Archbishop Williams athlete urinated on member of hockey team By JOE McGEE The Patriot Ledger It was a particularly ugly form of teenaged bullying. A hockey star at Archbishop Williams High School in Braintree has admitted in court that he urinated on a younger, smaller teammate. The victim, a 15-year-old sophomore, later withdrew from the school. His father said teammates and other students harassed the boy after he complained about what happened. The family pursued criminal charges against the older boy, 17-year-old Michael Owens of South Boston, because they were dissatisfied with...

CBS 2 Exclusive: Hazing Allegations At Local Academy * Million Dollar Lawsuit Filed By Parents Of Cadet May 11, 2005 6:12 pm US/Eastern NEW YORK (CBS) There are new allegations of hazing at the New York Military Academy. The well-known school located in Cornwall-On-Hudson is also being sued for $13 million dollars by the parents of one student who says he was brutalized there. The lawyer for a New York military academy cadet reportedly beaten and abused there says he has uncovered more evidence of attacks on students by upperclassmen at the 116-year-old school. He says he has an affadavit...

Army recruits 'beaten as they slept' By Fiona Govan (Filed: 18/04/2005) An inquiry has been launched into claims that Army recruits suffered a regime of vicious beatings and bullying at a Scottish barracks. Several soldiers in the Royal Highland Fusiliers have complained that they were subjected to unprovoked attacks, known as "bleaching", by colleagues as they slept. The assaults are alleged to have taken place over two years at the regiment's Fort George barracks, near Inverness, and while the soldiers were serving in Cyprus. One cadet claims that he attempted suicide after receiving 10 "bleachings" and another claims that was...

CHICO, Calif. (AP) - California State University in Chico suspended a fraternity after members admitted they participated in an adult film. The national chapter of Phi Kappa Tau also suspended the school chapter and is investigating the taping several months ago by Shane's World, an adult film producer known for using college students in its videos. The company generally provides the female porn stars for the films. Rick Rees, the university's associate director of student activities, said the fraternity's president apologized, admitting that "it was a bad decision." The school's fraternity system is already under investigation after a student died...

CHICO - As Debbie Smith heard details Thursday of the hazing ritual that killed her son and led to criminal charges against eight fraternity members, she wept on her husband's shoulder. Butte County District Attorney Mike Ramsey gave the details as he announced charges of involuntary manslaughter and hazing against members of the Chi Tau fraternity in the Feb. 2 death of Matthew Carrington.The 21-year-old Pleasant Hill resident and another pledge were kept up all night chugging water while doing push-ups in the cold, wet basement of the fraternity house. No one called 911 when Carrington collapsed after the hours-long...

Greece police are investigating allegations that a 6th grade wrestler was sexually assaulted by older team mates in the locker room at Greece Athena High School. The boy's mother said after a practice Saturday he called his family in tears. The victim's family said at least one other child was wrestled to the ground first--and stripped of his clothing--and then their son was attacked. The whole incident lasted nearly 20 minutes in an open area of the locker room at Greece Athena. The victim’s father said, "He's screaming at the top of his lungs and they didn't hear him so...

As the whiskey and wine he drank during a fraternity initiation began to kill Gordie Bailey, some of his fraternity brothers wrote racial, misogynist and sexual vulgarities all over his body as he lay passed out in the Chi Psi library. Family and friends described Lynn "Gordie" Bailey as a talented athlete but not a big drinker.On the morning of Sept. 17, when it became apparent that the 18-year-old was not breathing, someone tried to wipe off the slurs written on his face. The University of Colorado at Boulder freshman was soon pronounced dead, and at the coroner's office, more...

PARENTS SHOCKED AT ST. PAUL'S HAZING Lesbian chaplain contributed to problems, they say Special Report By David W. Virtue CONCORD, NH (9/24/2004)--Parents of a teenager who sent their daughter to St. Paul's, an elite Episcopal prep school, said they were not surprised at recent hazing story revelations. "Our daughter went to this school for a year and a half in the early 90's and we were oblivious to the environment into which we sent her. A counselor on her hall told us that there had been seven suicide attempts during her sophomore year there." "We were shocked at what our...

Baghdad - Sheik Ali bin Ibn Boutayoo, spiritual leader of the ultra-orthodox Waqi sect of Shi’ite Muslims, yesterday apologized to Paul Bremer, the Coalition Administrator of Iraq, for recent complaints about photographs which allegedly show American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners of war. “We had no idea that this was an initiation ceremony for the pledge class of the Baghdad University chapter of Tau Kappa Epsilon fraternity,” said Sheik Boutayoo. “In the past the only fraternal organizations at our universities were the College Suicide Bomber Coalition and the Saddam Scouts. We’re awfully sorry about the confusion and we sincerely hope that...

Link to C-SPAN http://inside.c-spanarchives.org:8080/cspan/schedule.csp I'm sure all the networks will be showing this.

LAKE COUNTY, Fla. -- A 14-year-old is facing felony charges after investigators say a club initiation on two young brothers went too far. The attack happened in a rural part of Lake County, near Clermont. Detectives say the unthinkable happened in the woods, on a dirty, moldy mattress on top of a flatbed truck. "If you want to be part of the Redneck Club, this is an act that had to be committed," explains Lt. Todd Luce, Lake County Sheriff's Office. To 14-year-old Andrew Jones, detectives say it was initiation into his so-called gang. First, he and an 11-year-old friend...

ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. -- A possible hazing incident is under investigation at the University of Central Florida. Campus police say they found a fraternity member covered in plastic wrap, tied to a tree. The UCF fraternity says it is conducting its own investigation and doesn't believe there was any hazing going on. Fraternity members claim some people were just celebrating after giving a girl a gift. Members of Phi Beta Phi called police to their sorority house after someone found Phi Delta Theta fraternity member Sean Pierce wrapped in saran wrap from head to toe and tied to a tree....

Shortened expulsion angers victim's momL-L teens found delinquent in assault of Adam Harris return to school today.By KALEN CHURCHER and BONNIE ADAMSkchurcher@leader.net, badams@leader.net LEHMAN TWP. - Candy Harris said she is angry and surprised the Lake-Lehman School Board allowed four students who injured her son to return to school five weeks early. "I just can't believe it," Harris said Tuesday. She said Co-Principal Michael Gokay told her Tuesday morning about Monday's closed board meeting and that the teens will return to school today instead of mid-January. She said her family had no input in the decision. "Everyone wants us to...

Colgate Kicks Out Fraternity for Hazing ASSOCIATED PRESS HAMILTON, N.Y. (AP) - Colgate University has kicked a fraternity off campus because of hazing new members, college officials said. The Kappa Delta Rho chapter house in Hamilton, 45 miles southeast of Syracuse, will be closed at the end of the semester. In the first reported incident, about 11 p.m. Sept. 24 off-campus in nearby Eaton, Madison County deputies reported finding a group of men in a field, some blindfolded and others reading poetry to them. College officials said it was preceded by underage drinking. Two weeks later, the university placed the...

PLATTSBURGH, N.Y. -- Two Plattsburgh State students pleaded guilty Wednesday to charges stemming from the death of a student police say was forced to drink pitchers of water through a funnel while pledging a fraternity. The guilty pleas came as officials at Plattsburgh State planned to announce that some of the 21 students involved in the hazing death of Walter Dean Jennings will be permanently dismissed from the school, a spokesman said. Adam Atkinson, 21, of Hudson Falls, pleaded guilty to second-degree hazing, a violation, in Clinton County Court, the Press-Republican of Plattsburgh reported. William Farmer III, 21, of Rochester...

At least two Mepham High School football players who have not been charged in the alleged sexual assaults at a preseason training camp were involved in various hazing incidents, including luring the victims to the cabin where they were attacked, sources familiar with the investigation said Friday. The sources said those players told the three freshmen who were allegedly sexually assaulted that they were being summoned for less violent hazing, such as a shaving cream attack or having hair ripped off their legs with duct tape.

Religious group from Kansas to protest at Mepham H.S.   Play the video (10/17/03) BELLMORE - There's a bizarre new development in the Mepham High School hazing scandal. A religious group from Kansas is planning a controversial protest at the school on October 27. Members of the Westboro Baptist Church claim Mepham High School encourages homosexuality and that's what caused three football players to allegedly sexually abuse teammates at a Pennsylvania training camp. A few years ago, Mepham High School created the gay-straight alliance and other civil right's groups. Principal John F. Didden says the clubs help foster tolerance...

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/sports/10012003_sp_cheerleaderhazing.html Cheerleader Hazing Accusations SCRANTON, PA-October 1, 2003 — The University of Scranton received an anonymous letter detailing hazing allegations involving its basketball cheerleading squad, a university spokesman said. The unsigned letter purported to be written by the parent of a freshman cheerleader who had recently made the team. It was addressed to the university's president, the Rev. Scott R. Pilarz, S.J. "We are, right now, vigorously investigating the situation," university spokesman Gerry Zaboski said. "We are having some conversations with students and coaches and are trying to get to the bottom of it." The letter said the cheerleading squad...

<p>PHILADELPHIA — A grand jury is investigating allegations that high school football players from New York sexually assaulted teammates during a hazing (search) ritual at a preseason training camp, a prosecutor said Monday.</p> <p>State police and the grand jury are investigating whether members of the Mepham High School football team (search) in Bellmore, N.Y., sodomized younger players with a broomstick, pine cones and golf balls during a five-day trip to the Camp Wayne for Girls (search) in Preston Park, Pa., said the Wayne County, Pa., District Attorney, Mark R. Zimmer.</p>

Bellmore-Merrick cancels Mepham football program after hazing incident (09/17/03) BELLMORE- The Bellmore-Merrick School Board voted Wednesday night to cancel Junior-Varsity and Varsity football at Mepham High School for the 2003 school year. The decision comes after allegations of a hazing incident among teammates. Three varsity football players were suspended from the team last week. They are accused of hazing and sodomizing younger players while at a training camp in Pennsylvania. Sixty players and five coaches had gone for a five-day session at the camp to prepare for the season. Bellmore-Merrick Superintendent Thomas Caramore says the coaches slept in a different...

When Nan Tulchinsky was a freshman in high school, she was the victim of harassment by upperclassmen at her Jackson, Mich., high school. She doesn't remember what she was told to do, but she remembers that she said "no" and walked away. "It happened in 1956 and I still remember it," Tulchinsky said. So as director of athletics for the South Bend Community School Corp., she's pretty sensitive to any harassment or hazing by upperclassmen. "We don't tolerate that at all," she said. "Respect for each other is the most important thing we teach." Tulchinsky frets about "what it can...

The recent brutal hazing incident involving high school students from a wealthy suburban Chicago community highlights the profound dystrophy that permeates the culture of America's modern youth. It is both an astonishingly disappointing incident and a prospectively wholly beneficial occurrence for future generations, should it be dealt with in a responsible and strategic manner. Why would dozens of otherwise highly respectful and capable teenagers commit such horrific acts? They were forced to, and by a most unlikely party: themselves. On an early Sunday afternoon in May, dozens of students of the academically excellent Glenbrook North High School of Northbrook, Illinois,...

SKOKIE, Ill. - Two parents were charged Wednesday with supplying alcohol to students at a suburban Chicago high school who participated in a brutal hazing incident captured on videotape. Christine Neal, 49, was charged with delivery of alcohol to a minor for buying three kegs of beer, two of which were found at the park where the hazing took place, prosecutors said. Marcy Spiwak, 49, was charged with allowing her home to be used for underaged drinking. Neal is the mother of student Dominic Vargas, 18, who was charged with unlawful possession of alcohol by a minor. Authorities said Vargas...

Two adults and a student were charged today with supplying alcohol to suburban Chicago high school students involved in the videotaped brutal hazing. Cook County State's Attorney Richard Devine said one woman was charged with purchasing three kegs of beer, two of which were found at the forest preserve where the hazing took place. Another woman was accused of allowing her home to be used for underaged drinking. The student was charged with unlawful possession of alcohol by a minor. Devine said that student brought the kegs to the May 4 ``powder puff'' event where Glenbrook North High School senior...

Glenbrook North High School offered a deal Monday to students facing expulsion for the May 4 hazing: Don't fight, don't sue, don't cut a book or movie deal--and you can graduate on time. School attorneys say 19 students are thinking about taking the deal, which asks them "not to exploit the matter for commercial purposes" and also would require them to attend counseling and perform community service. Students who sign the agreement would still be expelled, but the school would freeze their grades to what they were before their suspensions instead of flunking them, school board attorney Lawrence Weiner said....

NORTHBROOK, Ill. (May 20) - Thirty-one students accused in a videotaped hazing have been offered a deal to graduate on time if they won't fight expulsion or try to exploit the widely publicized incident with a book or movie deal. Glenbrook North High School officials say some of the students are considering the offer, which also requires the students to attend counseling and perform community service. School board attorney Lawrence Weiner said they would be expelled but the school would freeze their grades at their previous levels instead of automatically flunking them. ''They'll graduate with their class,'' he said. School...

Students disciplined in the violent melee involving Glenbrook North High School students might be facing more than just an ugly end to their high school days. Their college careers might also be on the line. About half of all U.S. colleges require incoming students to tell them about any serious trouble they've gotten into since they filled out their applications, including the University of Illinois, where, according to the high school's Web site, 174 Glenbrook North current seniors have enrolled. "There's a committee that evaluates each case," Robin Kaler, a spokesperson at the University's Urbana-Champaign campus, said Monday. "They look...

Courtesy of modem technology, we’ve been treated to videotape evidence of a high school "hazing" that happened at a north suburban high school. An event that was supposed to be an initiation for junior girls ended up sending five of them to the hospital, one student needing ten stitches in her head. Not surprisingly, alcohol was involved. Someone, probably someone of legal age, was thoughtful enough to provide a keg of beer. Other festive props included pig intestines, feces and paint thinner. In an e-mail to me (mikebates@prodigy.net), a reader reports hearing a TV news analyst provide a possible cause...