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At any rate, if one believes, as I do, that Christ's spirit appertains to His human nature, then growing spiritually is what one would expect. Does this explain the agony in the garden?

It does; however let us also consider that the fledgling Jesus was able to lecture in the Temple; a thing that the vast majority of grown men were unable to do. And what is Christ's spirit as separate from His Godhood; how do you explain that? I think more of Christ's Incarnation for our benefit than for His. God reaching down to us with His Hand from the infinite heights is for our benefit. I'm not sure about the applicability of Jesus growing from from grace to grace merely or mostly so He could experience the agony in the Garden more fully.

" The truth is, most black people don't commit these sorts of heinous crimes."

True, and you don't see that on TV either.

And Jackson - Sharpton Inc. only make it worse by blaming the victims of this heinous behavior. Notice that they (of all people) never go to bat for the majority of blacks when these incidents happen. Never do they point out that these awful incidents are being perpetrated by a small segment of the black community.

I'm telling you, I really hate those men. They've done nothing but pimp black folks since the end of the Civil Rights era.

I point that first out to lefties all the time, that blacks bear the brunt of high black crime rates. They largely completely ignore it.

I'll bet they're not black lefties. Blacks of every political persuasion know better. They've lived it.

That still doesn't help most blacks to see that the root cause of the degraded state of the black community is liberalism/socialism. Most continue to believe that the community needs more help from Uncle Sugar to heal itself.

You can even point out to them that Billions have been spent on the so-called "War on Poverty" with no corresponding rise in the quality of life for blacks, and they'll just look at you like you're speaking Martian.

I've given up trying to talk sense into my family members. They're grown people. If they can't think their way out of a paper bag, then I'm sorry for them. I've just used up too much gas going down that road to try anymore.

Also Jesus growing up from grace to grace is not prima facie gibberish at all, but the NT Greek (which I do not speak - Kosta or Kolo would you mind commenting on the better/best translation?)

Compare this:

Τὸ δὲ παιδίον ηὔξανεν, καὶ ἐκραταιοῦτο πνεύματι, πληρούμενον σοφίας· καὶ χὰρις θεοῦ ἦν ἐπ' αὐτό.

with this:

τὸ δὲ παιδίον ηὔξανεν καὶ ἐκραταιοῦτο πληρούμενον σοφίας, καὶ χάρις θεοῦ ἦν ἐπ' αὐτό.

The word πνεύματι is missing in the second variation, an Alexandrian type text. The word means "spirit". As you have noted, it is missing from the New American Standard version. The first version is the Byzantine version and speaks of Christ's spirit.

I like the NKJV, I suppose but the difference between that and the Literal translation isn't of any consequence. Does leaving out πνεύματι in the New American Standard say something about Alexandrian thought on the soul of Christ and thus His natures or nature?

At any rate, if one believes, as I do, that Christ's spirit appertains to His human nature, then growing spiritually is what one would expect. Does this explain the agony in the garden?

You know, this same talk is applied earlier in Luke to John the Baptist and, I think, to Samuel in the OT.

"...I suspect 99% of blacks hate white people..."

Nope. Don't buy it. Not for a second.

Correct. That belief was not developed to the extent that it was at Nicene. These early guys labored their whole lifetimes to get us to where we so easily accept ourselves now. Origen is a perfect case in point where he simply could not accept where the Church developed its doctrine. What if Origen was right or more right than the consensus? Although I am not working to rehabilitate Origen and don't know that much about him or his beliefs. You've referenced him before. Isn't he a foundational figure in Christianity? What was his heresy?

A great figure in early Christianity, yet was excommunicated and then condemned at Council 300 years later because of a number of issues including his Christology. Kosta is correct in stating that Origen's beliefs were not particularly heretical in the most part during his life; the Church however developed its doctrine to the point where Origen's beliefs were incompatible to the growing Church.

No, however, if one believes in an unrecognizable Jesus or God, then one is pagan.

Unrecognizable to whom? We have no pictures/photos/or physical description of Jesus Christ. All we have is the OT and NT to gauge who he is. As Kosta wrote earlier there is no evidence for the historical Jesus. How much is interpolation, well-meaning or not?

I mean in what little definitions that we have. We believe that Jesus is God, One forever and eternal. There are many who believe that Jesus is a construct, who grew into godhood. We believe in the Oneness of the Trinity. There are many who believe that either there is no Trinity (ie the Jesus Only Pentecostals) or else there are modes of God or that Jesus is subordinate to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the messenger boy of both.

I'm not kidding...that was no joke! I got home and realized I had a cruise book with his picture in it...this was the guy...

It makes you feel that you 'know' him.

Not to me. It's like saying of your spouse: "She's a bipedal primate belonging to the species Homo sapiens in Hominidae having a highly developed brain, capable of abstract reasoning, language, introspection, and problem solving."

It's descriptive and accurate but insufficient for your well-stated desire to "know exactly who we have that intimate relationship with, to know exaclty who that person is."

Does it matter that we have no exacting definition of God right here and now?

I think it does. Else our belief is nebulous and ill-defined. I think the Church spent many a General Council trying to achieve an exacting definition.

It is certainly galling for the intelligent and intellectual to admit defeat in understanding. The Church had to come with as good a definition as they could, but throughout the centuries, it has always admitted that God is unknowable. The Orthodox have even branched out into defining what God is not. That by itself is an admission that we are nowhere near up to the task of defining God.

If it comes down to it, define electricity; or electromagnetism, or matter, or energy, or the universe itself, for that matter How we relate to electricity, electromagnetism, or matter is qualitatively different and incomparable with how we relate topersonal relationshi ; with the latter we do.

You are sounding positively Evangelical here. What kind of personal relationship does a rotifer have with the Creator? The relationship we have (if any) is with the lowered hand of the Creator reaching way down to us.

I believe it is only proper that we know exactly who we have that intimate relationship with, to know exaclty who that person is.

God is on the other side of the gulf that is unknowable and uncrossable for us until our death. We have inadequate descriptions and man made 'maps' of God. The map is not the thing. Descriptions are not the thing. We attempt to make sense out of the infinite and to know the unknowable. We try to create some sort of definition so that we can deal with God in some sort of way. God may have some kind of personal relationship with us, but the other thing that we can have a relationship with is the lowered hand of God reaching out to us.

“You guys can do what you want, but I won’t be responsible if anyone goes to the hospital.” Nobody touched him.



LOL!!

And how well does this detailed description work for you as far as helping "know exactly who we have that intimate relationship with, to know exaclty who that person is"?

You mean how realistically does this description represent the ineffable God? Not very. But if you are willing to accept it in faith, then it's very detailed and deceptive. It makes you feel that you 'know' him.

I'd venture, not much. It's important for Church theology, but for the goal of knowledge sufficient for intimate relationship? I don't think so.

Yup. That's why +Paul kept insisting on faith and the idea that one is saved by faith alone.

"I hate you f---ing white people,"

We can thank all WHITE liberals for this sad state of affairs.

YES, THEY CAN!

...and get away with it.

Agreed to a point. What or how do you define divine?

I can't define divine. What I meant was: they don't portray him as God. Don't ask me how does one define God! :)

Words mean something "and" is not "or", "fully" is not "partially". I understand how a child grows, but how can God grow from grace to grace? It doesn't make sense.

Not sure where you are coming form Tenten. Obviously you do not consider Christ as human. God does not grow, but Christ is doctrinally also fully human. If he didn't grow as any other child (under grace), then he wasn't fully human, was he?

nothing much happened with it , if your in a 75% black school , with a black principle , well it must of been accident and left with that ,

its not all black people i dislike , I have a friend that was good , but he also said he had to get out of the hood , he was good worker , he was respectful to me ,
but when he talked to his boys on the phone i could hear the instant change in the way he talked ,

did i trust him to work YES did i give him the keys to my car NO

I am currently reading the Jewish Study Bible on the OT. I was shocked and surprised to see the Jewish commentary and translation both supporting the idea of a council of gods at the founding of the world as contained and written in Genesis

Although Hebrew uses the word gods (many Jewish translations change it to "angelic beings"), oral Torah has a lot more "interesting stuff." I would like to see exactly what you are referring to. Just don't forget that Judaism was by all accounts a pagan religion; monotheistic, but pagan in practice.

since Judaism was in a state of apostasy when Christ arrives, might the powerful influences of the Persians, Greeks and even Egyptians have altered the foundational truths of pre-Christian Judaism?

I am not sure I understand what you mean by Judaism being in a state of "apostasy" when Christ arrives. Why was it in a state of "apostasy?" I would say , to the contrary. Beginning about 300 years before Christ, the Jews returned to worshipping Eli and observing the Sabbath.

No hate crimes here. Move along.

Seriously, some people are animals.And like predators, they need to be dealt with in the same manner that predators are dealt with.

Midnight basketball is not going to do the trick.

“OK, in that case: The blacks need to be liberated from the horribility of economic freedom and evil white people”

Well, let the transports to Africa begin.

OK and thanks for the clarifications Kosta. That said:

Second, let me clear up something: Synoptic Gospels do not portray a divine Jesus. So, if you are looking for Jesus' divinity, John is the source (and even he is not always consistent).

Agreed to a point. What or how do you define divine?

Third, the Church looks at the Incarnate Logos as fully God and fully human, so in his humanity (i.e. in his human nature) Jesus would be growing up as any other child, including from grace to grace.

Words mean something "and" is not "or", "fully" is not "partially". I understand how a child grows, but how can God grow from grace to grace? It doesn't make sense.

I must run, but I love these discussions and cannot wait to hear Mark's and Kolo's perspectives.

Oh yeah, I've fired quite a few shells through it. You can fire 8 off in less than three seconds. It has the best semi-auto feed of any shotgun that I've seen, firing a hundred or so with no jams.

It isn't a hunting weapon and the barrel length is the best for home defense and protection rather than shooting clays. Before the AR's came forward, many PD's used them as SWAT entry and offensive weapons.

but I do’nt see any of them coming out and condemning this stuff

I'll bet they do, they are probably the biggest class of black on black victims...Uncle Toms.

Kosta: What is the Biblically stated 'doctrine' of salvation?

1010RD: Belief in Jesus Christ (as a real historical figure) and his fulfillment of his mission as "restorer"/Savior for mankind & baptism.

That is a doctrine that developed at a later date.

And though not explicit in Matthew it is implicit. As you've stated many times, there is outside our Biblical account little reason to believe that Jesus Christ ever existed. Hence the need for faith - despite the evidence, but faith coupled with reason.

That's true for the entire Bible. The point is, as a doctrinal tool,  Matthew 25 does not say we will be judged on on our faith but on our works and intentions, and how they conform to Christ's.

“Boat people come here with only the shirts on their backs and within a few years they’re speaking English and they own their own nail salons.”

Self respect
Self confidence
Hard Work
Taking Advantage of Opportunities

Delight in running their own affairs and they love the lifestyle of being able to say what they want and know their livlihood isn’t going to be destroyed on whim.

“Blaming whitey, the school system, the police, the world...it doesn’t wash anymore”

No, but they use it anyway. It’s a carefully constructed reality and they will get violent if it is tampered with.

Let them strew in their own hatred and self destruct. Remove welfare and Darwin will take control.

Let them strew in their own hatred and self destruct. Remove welfare and Darwin will take control.

“You will notice many happy successful members of the American black middle class (see floor of Wall Street) and elsewhere in business.”

I hear that time and time again, but I do’nt see any of them coming out and condemning this stuff. This is why I’m bailing to Panama, Asia, somewhere that doesn’t have a sustained welfare class and has an efficient, ruthless criminal system that actually punishes criminals.

The truth is, most black people don't commit these sorts of heinous crimes.

True, and you don't see that on TV either.

What if Origen was right or more right than the consensus?

Origen's condemnation came as an afterthought (6th century. I would say that in his days (early third century), he was pretty much representative of most other Christian theologians in his suboridnationalist Trinitarian doctrine (Eusebius being another fine example, as well as all other Christian Apologetics worth mentioning). His teaching of the universal salvation of the souls (eventual annihilation of hell and salvation of the condemned) was taught by his followers, one of whom is a pillar of Christian orthodoxy, +Gregory of Nyssa, one of the three Cappadocian Fathers. +Gregory later recanted this doctrine, but for a while apparently it was not considered outside of the mainline Christian belief. In fact, Origen's works were compiled in the first volume of the collection of Christian doctrinal classics known as Philokalia,  a treasure pit of Patristic writings in four volumes.

Unrecognizable to whom?

Doctrinally unrecognizable to the Church.

Mark: Which on the face of it is so much gibberish. Christ is God. We do not believe that God 'grows' since he is the be-all and end-all and is one with the universe.

1010RD: Also Jesus growing up from grace to grace is not prima facie gibberish at all, but the NT Greek (which I do not speak - Kosta or Kolo would you mind commenting on the better/best translation?) [Luke 2:40]

Tenten, first I don't speak Greek, but I can read koine Greek. My language expertise is in  Church Slavonic,  the closest equivalent to koine Greek, by design. Kolo is the speaker of Greek. He hears that language in divine liturgy every Sunday, so he is your first choice when it comes to correct interpretation/opinion in Greek.

Second, let me clear up something: Synoptic Gospels do not portray a divine Jesus. So, if you are looking for Jesus' divinity, John is the source (and even he is not always consistent).

Third, the Church looks at the Incarnate Logos as fully God and fully human, so in his humanity (i.e. in his human nature) Jesus would be growing up as any other child, including from grace to grace.

I like cheese Danish. ;O)

I just can’t understand the mental wiring. This country is loaded with classes, opportunities, chances, luck.

You will notice many happy successful members of the American black middle class (see floor of Wall Street) and elsewhere in business.

However, unlike Asians, inside part of "black culture" education is not respected, in fact those who are achievers are treated with disdain and are considered trying to be "white"

Maybe you could take a look at the BET channel to get a quick snootful.

Pose as a defenseless white nerd and then when you have a gang of blacks attack you say my life was in danger so I did what I had to do.

If they went to my old neighborhood and did this, they'd be coyote meat. Even here in my part of the Ann Arbor area, many of us have guns.

I'll bet money that the whites attacked were yuppies or hipsters. They don't go after working class whites. We fight back. They damn well don't go after the bikers. These black gangs only attack the yuppies, Mexicans, or other blacks, always on "their" turf. It's about turf and money.

I have to admit that one side of me wishes that the Winter Hill Gang come back and puts some old fashion Irish justice on some of these street gangs. Too many white folk lost their balls.

Thanks for the Herbing tip and a ccw herb is a safe herb in most environments.

Molon Labe,
NSNR

The gangs "own that area," one suspect told police.

That is just another way of saying "government is failing at its primary function."

I would say you hate all bad people, regardless of their race. Somtimes a bad one or some get through the perimeter and we deal with them in an expedient manner.

I once heard to us referred to as rabbits and chucks. So under this admin “chuck&rabbit” hunting must be en vouge.

I think you made the right choice in kicking you ex-wife to the curb. When they become unfaithful, time to go looking for a newer model with extreme fidelity.

What happened to the domestic terrorist who stabbed you? He should have been paid a visit from Quido.

For God&Country,
NSNR

Way to Danish for my taste. :)

“Bernard always Goetz what he shoots”

These black supremacists are as innumerate as they are intemperate. That may put them under “The Law of Unintended Consequences”..

Glad you survived that onslaught and it pays to be vigilant 24/7.

Molon Labe,
NSNR

"Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial, we have always been and we -- I believe continue to be in too many ways essentially a nation of cowards," Holder told Department of Justice employees at an event Wednesday celebrating Black History Month, Feb 18, 2009

Holder proved that he was talking about himself when he refused to prosecute the New Black Panthers. 0ba-Mao proved that Holder was talking about him when he said the Boston cop "acted stupidly." Liberals in general prove they are cowards about race issues when they make "Hate Crimes" laws and Affirmative Action laws. The MSM proves that they are cowards about race issues when they refuse to cover black on white crimes.

Look at the liberal position on any issue and you will soon conclude that, by definition, liberals are cowards. Liberals are cowards when it comes to facing reality. Think of any issue whatsoever and see if that doesn't hold true.

agree, the “Agitator-in-Chief”

Reminds me of when I worked in down town Oakland in the 80’s. There was a young black guy who preyed on women eating their lunch in the veranda area of the office building. He was labeled the “kicker” because he would walk up to his victim as they were eating and kick them in the head hard then run away. Several co-workers were hospitalized including a very sweet young asian girl I knew. She got a concussion. Several of us guys would time our breaks and lunches in an effort to catch him. The OPD got him first and he went away for awhile. The justice system recycled him back to the street and he resumed his hobby. This time he made a bad mistake. He targeted three women and one man, all off duty Alameda County deputies on their lunch hour. According to the OKLD Tribune he “resisted” arrest and sustained a broken elbow and several ribs. We never saw him again. :)

Why, exactly?

While white culture has twisted itself into a pretzel bending over backward to indulge bestial behavior, blacks have been free to blame the failure of their "culture" on the white man. I's encouraged. These people think we're weak as individuals.

Some day the worm is gonna turn. It's going to come as a big surprise.

That’s better. I didn’t want to have to rough you up. ;^P

It is prolly worse in NJ, TE. And we can’t carry guns to defend ourselves. I am not even sure if mace/pepper spray is legal lol.

Paging Mr. Kierkegaard, Mr. Soren Kierkegaard, please go to the nearest courtesy phone...:o)

Yes that would be sweet justice but the dems are so stupid, it doesn’t occur to them that there are consequences to their actions i.e. race baiting, voting etc. which no doubt leads to these attacks. So even if their skulls get beat in, they don’t have a clue.

Looks like the police better get there & start doing their job. Doesn’t sound like a upscale safe dining /shopping area to me from this article.

Alright, pandy. OK. Don't make me pull the New Jersey card on you. ;^)

Very interesting website - thanks much.