Posted on 10/09/2001 12:20:12 PM PDT by malakhi
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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 159
What would you bet that if he simply made a logical decision as to what Church he would go to, it would be Catholic. He admires the pope, especially their stand on abortion and their no bend policies. I have heard him on this subject many times.
Makes sense to me. He is a big "establishment conservative" kind of guy. And there is no big "establishment conservative" place like the Catholic Church.
SD
Yeah sure. Agreement can be nice. Soon I'll mess it up by asking JHavard if he thinks Jesus is God or not. I already know your answer and it is also unequivocable. ;-)
SD
Rather than chance seeing the threads close down, I'll bite. I have no firm conviction on this subject other then it seems that Christ had to be completely human, and have the same trials and temptations as we do, and if he had some advantage that we don't have, Satan could throw that up as an unfair advantage.
Remember what he told God concerning Job?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Remember, this God that Satan was talking to in Job is the same God that Satan had to deal with after the resurrection.
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
I believe that Satan knew that Jesus was the Son of God, and now he knew that he was more then just a good Jew, but he also knew that he was now in a totally human state.
Mt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
This was the same Spirit that we are given, except Christ used it to the max, and it serves as an example of our potential, except I believe Jesus had a very real sense of his mission, where we tend to loose site of ours.
When God determined that to save mankind he would have to literally become one of us, he knew that Satan would say, "sure you can overcome temptation if you have an unfair advantage, but take away your full God ship and be as them, and we'll see how good you do in the same circumstances.
He did, and he beat Satan using his own rule book, and this is what I like to think of as my Savior, a God who won the game using the same tools he gave me to use, no more, no less.
You are absolutely correct that Jesus needed to be fully human in order for the task to be fair. He needed to feel and breathe just like us. He needed to be tempted and not be able to just pull out the "God card," if you will.
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
As a side note, I saw a good movie the other day called "Bless the Child," about a 6 year old girl who was apparently a "special" child who could do great good, or great evil if turned. Of course the devil character had to tempt the child to get her to serve the Evil Master. They replayed this scene, with the top of a tall city building standing in for the cliff used in scripture.
The Devil character tmpted the child to jump, saying that God promised the angels would protect her. He knew that Satan would protect him, cause satan really existed. Did she believe Her God really existed? If so, she should jump.
The little girl responded "You first"
Anyway,
I believe that Satan knew that Jesus was the Son of God, and now he knew that he was more then just a good Jew, but he also knew that he was now in a totally human state.
He was in a human body and capable of experiencing death.
Mt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
This was the same Spirit that we are given, except Christ used it to the max, and it serves as an example of our potential, except I believe Jesus had a very real sense of his mission, where we tend to loose site of ours.
He did, and he beat Satan using his own rule book, and this is what I like to think of as my Savior, a God who won the game using the same tools he gave me to use, no more, no less.
Your thinking reminds me of Havoc's. In that you can make no distinction between your inhabitation of the Holy Spirit and the nature of the Incarnated Christ. It is true that God needed to humble Himself to become man, to struggle with what we struggle with, to truly overcome the human condition. And to do it without "cheating." You amply demonstrate that you understand that Jesus had to be truly human.
This is, to my people anyway, half of the story. Jesus also needed to be truly God. The obedience of one man, even unto death, is not sufficient to wipe out the infinite release of sin into the world. God (the infinite) needs to sacrifice Himself (the infinite) in order to right the scales. Infinite injustice requires infinite repayment. If Jesus is just a man, there is no infinite well of salvation, no limitless application of the sacrifice, no everlasting supply of the blood. Jesus must be God, be infinite in order to fully repay the debt.
What we are left with is a person who is fully human and fully divine. We can't necessarily explain it all, but it must be.
SD
That would be the "orthodox" definition. That's why I separate those who adhere to the first couple of councils from those who are completely "freelance." I myself, with no prior knowledge of the extent of freelancing going on, would have been stunned with such responses a few months ago. I like to point to these fundamental (no pun intended) differences to see if anyone besides Catholics (and our Greek friends) find it shocking.
SD
One more observation. If you believe Jesus was the "Son of God," you need to ask yourself when the "son" of something assumes a different fundamental character (or essence) from that which is the father. Dogs sire more dogs. Horses sire horses. Cats sire cats.
If Jesus is the "Son of God" He must be God. (Begotten, not made. Consubstantial (of the same substance) with the Father) If Jesus is the "Son of Man" He must be man.
Which is it then? Is Jesus God or Man? The answer is 100 per cent both.
SD
No cuz I'd just be talking to myself. :-)
Becky
S.Baptist,Methodist,Presbyterians and Lutherans would all agree with John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word and the word was wih God and the Word was God.
Whats shocking about false teachings, Dave you should get out more. :)
BigMack
Dave you have the makings of a good FUNDAMENTALIST, now if you could just get the rest of it. :)
BigMack
Come on Steven you have to be rested up by now, time to dive back in. I miss your posts.
BigMack
Oh cool, now we can have a Monophysite/Arian/Dyophysite discussion!
JHavardWhen God determined that to save mankind he would have to literally become one of us, he knew that Satan would say, "sure you can overcome temptation if you have an unfair advantage, but take away your full God ship and be as them, and we'll see how good you do in the same circumstances.
He could be tempted yes, but being God he was never in danger of sinning. God, of course, cannot sin.
Actually I am feeling pretty good now Mack. Praise to the Lord. Just been watching the news alot with all the hoopla lately. I'm ready to dive in tho. I know you, bass, Havard and havoc and others have been carrying the load lately and I appreciate that. Doin' a mighty fine job too. Haven't really needed me. I'll get warmed up here soon tho. Hear that SD, Al_c, Peg, D-fendr, Allend, etc. Thought you were off the hook did ya? Why I oughta........
conservanator: Sola Scriptura is a man made tradition. It is not implied in scripture. Men who wanted to rebel against Christ and his Church invented it.
What a joke you are, a RC, preaching to us about what are "man-made traditions" not even implied in Scripture. That's rich! Stop it you are killing me (with laughter)!
So you feel their was no risk involved, no chance what so ever of failure. Unlike Job when God gave him over to Satan to do as he pretty well pleased, would you say Job had no chance of failure? Satan would have really balked if he had known it was a set up, and God already knew the results.
Christ understood the importance of his mission, and he never treated it like it was a shoo-in, if he knew he couldn't fail, why the following verses?
Jn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
V-5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
If he was still the infinite God, why did he ask his Father to restore the glory he once had.
Lk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
V-43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Did the infinite God need strengthend?
Mk 14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
V-36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
.Mt 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Does this sound like Jesus had no concerns about the coming day?
If he was full God at this time, was it the physical Jesus that was in pain and asked, if their was any way to avoid this, to please do so, and if he was 100% God, he could care less what they did, because he could simply block out all pain at any time.
Simply saying that he was 100% God, and 100% man is offering no proof, but simply making a statement that sounds good.
No one knows for sure how God worked this out, but there is a lot more proof that God became a Man Jesus, and gave up his divinity for 33 or so years, and had no advantages that any man who had a good Godly background of his day had, except he had the Holy Spirit that he now has given us, and he had to become more and more aware of his past life as his Spirit strenghtend and grew.
One more thing, please explain this if he was 100% God.
Mk 6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. 5. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. 6. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
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