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"Bodyworks" Art Display Uses Real Human Brain, Dead Bodies.

Culture/Society News Keywords: ART,DEATH, DEADBODIES
Source: Washington Times-Chavez
Published: 3/6/01 Author: Linda Chavez
Posted on 03/07/2001 07:06:00 PST by Taxula

Gunther von Hagens has given new meaning to the term "culture of death." Von Hagens, a German anatomist, has created an "art" exhibit consisting of works that include a man seated at a chess board, his brain exposed; a woman whose pregnant belly is peeled back to reveal an 8-month fetus curled inside; a skinned man astride a horse, holding his brain in his right hand, the horse's in his left.

Nothing shocking about this, you say, it's just what passes for modern art these days? Ah, but there's an important difference. Von Hagens' "Bodyworks" exhibit is not representational art -- the usual paintings or sculptures or even photographs -- but actual human bodies or body parts from 200 dead men, women and children preserved, dissected, mutilated and put on display to entertain.

So far, the exhibit has toured cities in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Japan, where it has been seen by almost 2.5 million people in Germany alone and raised more than $1.4 million for its promoters. But in Berlin, where the exhibit opened last month, the Catholic Church has protested vigorously. Failing to get authorities to halt the show, the day the exhibit opened, the Church held a Requiem Mass for the dead on display.

Von Hagens created the technique he calls plastination, which replaces body fluids with epoxy and other polymers to produce an odorless, non-decaying corpse or human body part. He claims there is nothing wrong with what he does. He compares himself to Leonardo da Vinci, who studied cadavers to better understand the human body. He even professes to be helping his dead subjects. A signed release form from one woman purports to be fulfilling her wish: "The thought that after my death I could be part of a museum is comforting and fascinates me. What a shame that I'll never discover how my dead body will be used," the woman's statement reads.

What a shame indeed. Of course there is no way to verify that the subjects had any real idea what Von Hagens had in mind. Despite the credulity of the press in accepting the authenticity of these "consent" forms, can anyone really believe that the pregnant women who are part of his horror show knew that their bodies were to be cut open to expose their unborn babies? More likely, these poor souls signed some release form at some point before they died donating their bodies to science. And there is a real difference between using human remains for scientific purposes and exploiting them for shock value.

Von Hagens' purpose is simple: He wants to reduce the human body to a mere object. How better to do it than to take real bodies and defile, manipulate and pervert them from flesh and blood into plastic for the purpose of amusing those with a particularly ghoulish appetite? In the process, he goes way beyond objectification. He denigrates not only the human body but life itself.

So far, Von Hagens' collection has appeared only in countries whose pro-Nazi history makes them particularly suspect. You would think officials, especially in the former Axis nations, would be just a little queasy about public displays featuring hundreds of dead humans, their limbs, organs and flesh petrified by a German doctor.

But soon, we, too, may have a chance to witness the spectacle of a dead runner whose entire skin, like a human suit, drapes over his arm. Von Hagen is apparently negotiating with museums in New York, San Francisco, Portland, Ore., and Seattle. No doubt, he'll be successful, with the museums defending their decision to display this little shop of horrors on First Amendment grounds.

Extremists have previously invoked the First Amendment to protect all manner of vile activity that masquerades as art, even to insist that government pay for it. Remember the "performance art" of an AIDS-infected man who cut his body on stage and then attached blood-soaked rags to pulleys sent out to hang over his audience's heads? Or "Piss Christ," the contribution of a National Endowment of Arts- funded artist whose work consisted of a crucifix standing in a jar of urine?

If Von Hagens succeeds in bringing "Bodyworks" to the States it will celebrate not only the culture of death, it will mark the death of culture in America

1 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:06:00 PST by Taxula
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EEEEWWWWW!!!!!

2 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:08:34 PST by Taxula
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How horrifying! This guy should be made to share the fate of his subjects.

If this macabre spectacle ever does come to the U.S., it needs to be immediately FReeped.

3 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:14:38 PST by ppaul
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I would expect this freak show to arrive at the Brooklyn Museum any day now.

4 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:14:46 PST by workerbee
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Sign me up for the Freep , cause I'm an Art Historian!
I am incensed that anyone purports that this is "Art!"

5 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:17:37 PST by MegoDittoQueen (All your bullsh!t is belong to them!)
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Amazing. And if it does we will fund it with our taxpayer dollars. I refuse. Of course the more controversial the more Brooklyn wants it! What's next? Animating?

6 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:18:26 PST by Taxula
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Scienceinterviews.com - The Von Hagens Interview -

	The Von Hagens Interview Gunther Von Hagens: The Michelangelo of the Mortuary COULD A SURGEON be at the same time a sculptor? Could a dead body be transformed into 'an object of enlightenment'? Could the raw material of a sculptor be something that some days ago was alive? In this interview to Paul Papadopoulos, Gunther Von Hagens, a pioneering scientist and perhaps the most controversial artist in the world replies 'yes' to all the above questions! GUNTHER VON HAGENS, anatomist and inventor of plastination lives in Heidelberg, Germany where he has established the 'Institute of Plastination'. Plastination has been adopted by more than 250 institutes in 38 countries as a revolutionary body-preserving technique. Mr. Von Hagens, gives lectures and organises exhibitions of 'plastinated' human bodies all around the world. He has been interviewed by many leading newspapers and magazines - including the 'Sunday Times', the 'New York Times' and the TIME magazine. "The view of the plastinated bodies help people feel more positively about themselves." "THE BODY REPRESENTS THE SOUL", says the German anatomist Gunther Von Hagens. "The human body is a unique treasure developed during a period of a lifetime." VON HAGENS is a scientist who is 'sculpting' dead human bodies. He is the inventor of plastination, a tissue preserving technique that can be used in keeping dead bodies intact for many thousand years. Von Hagens takes dead bodies and, as he says, transforms them into 'objects of enlightenment'. Operating with the lancet, he reveals the beauty and the complexity of the muscles, the veins, the vital organs and then offers the 'frozen in time' speciment to the arms of eternity. PLASTINATION was perfected in the late 1970's and it is a lisenced invention. The plastination treatment includes many stages. At first, each corpse is immersed in cooled liquid acetone which enters it through various portals displacing water and fat. Afterwards, the body is infused with a polymer preparation that is kept secret by Von Hagens as it constitutes the essence of his invention. Gradually, the treated-body becomes hardened under ultraviolet light. NATURALLY, the church is not amused by Von Hagen's achievements. Senior members of the church in Germany have denounced the technique claiming that "it violates the sanctity of the soul". IN THIS INTERVIEW to Paul Papadopoulos, Gunther Von Hagens talks about his early years in the former East Germany, analyses the significance of plastination and elaborates in his lifelong mission to transform dead bodies into 'objects of unique beauty'! "I show the body frozen in time exactly at the moment between death and the beginning of decay. It is a picture of great beauty." - As a youngster, had you imagined your future? "I will reply by telling you some things about me. When I was six years old I wanted to become a doctor. I was interested in psychology and chemistry. When I was sixteen, I left school. My teacher of mathematics was telling me 'You'll never achieve it.' I did a lot of different jobs for three years and then I returned back at school. I proceeded contrary to the opinions other people had about me. I did the same when I was reacting against the East Germany's regime. I am not considerably depended on or influenced by others. I always do what I believe." - Were you an East German dissident? "Of course! I was educated according to the communist ideals but after some years I felt betrayed. Simply, I couldn't adjust anymore. In a communist country you had nothing to lose except of your chains." - Have you fought for these ideas? "When I was a medical student I was imprisoned for two years. Three months before the end of my sentence the authorities of West Germany bought my freedom. Back then, West Germany was buying the freedom of twenty political prisoners each week. It was 1968 and I was 23. I finished my studies in West Germany. Today, I visit many countries and I always make sure to speak to people about all these. I want to spread the message of the superiority of democracy. Democracy is a necessity for every society." - When did you discover plastination? "I started experimenting with plastination in 1977. The first 10 years were devoted to the development of the necessary polymers. These polymers are now licensed. Their chemical structure is a secret and I sell them all over the world. Much time was spent for the accomplishment of all these. One plastinated body that can be seen today at an exhibition contains more than two decades of knowledge. My aim has always been the enlightenment of the general public over the beauty of the human body which plastination effectively uncovers." - After a numerous of plastination operations, what a 'human body' means to you? "The body represents the soul and a human body is just a treasure. A treasure uniquely developed over a period of a lifetime. Therefore, at the beginning of the 1970's I started wondering why people are barred from seeing the body in all its beauty. What I finally did was to democratise anatomy. I transformed anatomy into a live anatomical art!" - Do you agree that the plastinated bodies provoke a kind of fear? "To me, not at all. However, a kind of fear may be the first reaction of many people because we have all had watched horror movies in which a rotten corpse suddenly appears. We have connected the idea of death with the sight of a decomposed body. But personally I show the body frozen in time exactly at the moment between death and the beginning of decay. It is a picture of great beauty. Therefore the visitors at my exhibitions soon overcome the fear and start admiring the beauty of the bodies." - However it is a kind of beauty that appears attached to the idea of death. Death's presence is overwhelming because the bodies are real - they aren't models. Could we therefore assume that the experience of the visitors is something absolutely positive? "The experience is certainly a positive one because it helps the visitor the horror that is contained in the idea of death. The specimens are put under bright light in a very clear atmosphere. At the beginning there is a tension but it soon disappears because you don't see what you expect to see. What you actually see is the beauty of the human being, the beauty of nature. Many people start laughing and making jokes. Ninety five per cent of the visitors in the Heidelberg exhibition in the summer of 1998 said that they were satisfied by what they saw. On a relevant questionnaire they replied that the exhibition was either 'good' or 'very good' and that it provoked very positive feelings. And we had many visitors. We actually had 418.000 visitors in just three months!" "The people who visit my exhibitions are coming towards me saying 'thank you!'." - Why some members of the German Church and the Christian-Democratic party tried to ban the Heidelberg exhibition? "They tried to do that because they don't understand people. They are leaders of organisations only interested in preserving their existence. They don't accept anything that threatens the 'status quo'. As history has taught us, the church accepts change only 300 years after it happens. It never accepts change instantly. In this case, plastination disturbs the 'body donation' program of the church. People donate their bodies to the church which puts them at cemeteries. The church's people are not prepared to accept that there are other solutions as well. They regard themselves as the only authority with the right to decide the fate of the bodies." - Undoubtedly you have in a sense succeeded in immortalising the human body. Does this indicate a personal battle against death and decay? "Surely this is correct at a degree. Death is a kind of betrayal. You live a whole life, you are in a constant struggle, you achieve some things and then you are forced to go. This fact is somehow depressing. On the other hand, if you see yourself in the general context of the planet or the universe you eventualy realise that you really resemble with something less than a speck of sand in the Sahara desert. Even a plastinated body cannot resist decay forever. It can stand for 5000 years but still there is a limit." - What do you think people would say while looking at your preserved body in a museum after 3000 years? "They would look at the date and they would say 'at this period of the 20th century the polymers that are preserving the body after death were used for the first time'. My name is not important. But I believe that the date of the first use of the polymers is important. Because it signals a new era when the internal part of the body can be preserved in a new, revolutionary way." - Why did you decide to follow this career? "I followed this career because I wanted to show the human body in all its beauty and complexity to the general public. The people who visit my exhibitions are coming towards me and they say 'thank you!'. The view of the plastinated bodies helps them feel differently, more positively about themselves. My motivation is to show the beauty of the human body and I think that people realise that." - However, there must be a deeper motivation. "There is perhaps a deeper motivation and this is that I like controversy. Plastination is the manifestation of my tendency to think differently. I like doing things in a different way. I was successful as an inventor because of that. This is the element that defines me. If someone says 'this is impossible', then I go for it." "My best friend had expressed the wish to be plastinated. He suddenly died a few years ago. I respected his wish and I plastinated him." - Have you ever feared yourself? "Thank you because I have never been asked this question. But I can't possibly answer it. I can only tell you the idea I have about myself. I regard myself as someone who always listen to what the people have to say while he never listens to what the leaders are saying." - Have you ever feared yourself? "Thank you because I have never been asked this question. But I can't possibly answer it. I can only tell you the idea I have about myself. I regard myself as someone who always listen to what the people have to say while he never listens to what the leaders are saying." - When you are alone what your own self is saying to you? "I don't judge myself all the time. I simply exist. Also, I don't judge what I do at the time I am doing it. When I am working I am thinking purely in scientific terms." - However, your raw material is something that some days or some months before was crying, laughing or making love. It was alive. It was not a piece of marble. So does this crucial detail cause a certain kind of unusual thoughts while you are working on the bodies? "No. I work just like a surgeon. I am not emotionally influenced by the admittedly special nature of my work. The only thing a surgeon must not do is to operate on his own relatives. The same applies to my case as well. However, my best friend who was at the same age as me, suddenly died a few years ago. He had expressed the wish to be plastinated and his wife agreed. I respected this wish and I plastinated him." - What did you think during the treatment? "It wasn't easy. The first stage of plastination includes the placing of the body into a chemical solution aimed at displacing water and fat from the tissues. We had placed his body in such a chemical solution for four weeks. One day I went to the lab. When I opened the zip of the bag his hand streched across the desk to me. It is true that this image was quite upsetting. I closed the bag again and I left the body into the chemical solution for another four weeks. Even today, I try not to remember that. But this incident did not of course change any of my views on plastination. It is beyond any doubt that plastination transforms the body into an object of great beauty that enlightens the viewers. Since I started, more than 20 years ago, I have plastinated more than 200 bodies and I am very happy with that."

7 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:22:51 PST by Edgar Thorn
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Thats the spirit! How come you aren't running the NEA?

8 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:24:57 PST by Taxula
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Oh goodness. I think I will skip lunch......

9 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:32:29 PST by Taxula
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Truly a modern day Frankenstein. He says the German churches who tried to ban his work just don't understand it.
A poster above asked, what is the next step? Animation? I fear that in my children's lifetime, they will be forced
to endure (and their taxes used to finance) even greater depths of depravity in the culture. There is a certain macabre fascination
to Van Hagens' "work." Evil is often fascinating.

10 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:33:00 PST by ppaul
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I just skimmed this article, because I did not want to look at the photos (being somewhat squeamish about these things). Von Hagens' commentary is so matter-of-fact that I am reminded of the concept "the banality of evil." He discusses his hobby of corpse mutilation with the cold-bloodedness of an SS doctor from Auschwitz. Very scary stuff.

The effect that he is trying to get could have been achieved ENTIRELY using synthetic materials. There is absolutely no reason to rob graves and mutilate corpses. I believe that the "shock value" is the art, rather than the physical presentation.

11 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:33:42 PST by Goetz_von_Berlichingen
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How dunno, wish I were! Think I should send a resumé to President Bush?
In point of fact, I'd like to help DISMANTLE the NEA!
I think the federal government should not be in the Art business!

12 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:34:49 PST by MegoDittoQueen (All your paint are belong to us!!)
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13 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:39:15 PST by cornelis
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American Joel Peter Witkin (sp?) has been doing cadaver art for about a decade. He's received NEA grants. Utterly sickening stuff, it's the work of a guy who would probably a Dahmer clone were it not for connection to the arts community. Will a conservative administration ever summon the courage to pull the plug on the NEA? Of course not.

14 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:43:41 PST by Old Fud
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This is obviously another "gotta have" for the Brooklyn Museum of Art. Thoroughly disgusting!

15 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:44:50 PST by LibertarianLiz
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Please do! All of us Freepers will support you!

16 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:50:24 PST by Taxula
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I can't agree with you more Liz, but as far as I am concerned perhaps now is the time to hit the NEA with petitions not to allow this stuff. Of course we may just succeed in making it more desirable. It would seem the more outlandish the further inclined they are to allow it a highly public forum.

17 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:52:36 PST by Taxula
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Well, I would be doing the "Lord's work," which not coincidentally should also be the function of real Art, to be spiritually up-lifting, which this amalgam of body parts plainly is not!
(Aesthetics aside, how in the world could you curate this show and keep the exhibits "fresh?" Ewwwwwwwww. Betcha they are made of latex, too!)

18 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:53:59 PST by MegoDittoQueen
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a woman whose pregnant belly is peeled back to reveal an 8-month fetus curled inside;

"I plastinated her." "

How is that for preserving the miracle of life?

19 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:55:58 PST by Taxula
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Hey, maybe at one of this nutcases' "shows" someone could open a giant can of whoopass on this guy when he's showing off his "masterpieces", and claim it's their own "performance art".

Just a thought... Hey, if anything goes, anything goes, eh?

20 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:56:52 PST by Joe Brower
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"In a related story, Michael Jackson, the King of Pop, visited Oxford today..."

21 Posted on 03/07/2001 07:58:11 PST by Husker8877
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"In a related story, Michael Jackson, the King of Pop, visited Oxford today..."

"I plastinated her...him...er, IT!"

22 Posted on 03/07/2001 08:00:40 PST by Taxula
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Nevermind the cadavers, the picture of the "artist" is pretty scary all by itself. I mean, really... if you look at it long enough you almost expect him to start twitching.

23 Posted on 03/07/2001 08:01:39 PST by workerbee
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In this case, plastination disturbs the 'body donation' program of the church. People donate their bodies to the church which puts them at cemeteries. The church's people are not prepared to accept that there are other solutions as well. They regard themselves as the only authority with the right to decide the fate of the bodies."

Not only is he an "artist," he's a "theologian" too.

Does anyone need any more proof that we live in a "Culture of Death?" This is lower than I could have imagined, and we haven't hit bottom yet.

24 Posted on 03/07/2001 08:02:48 PST by Aquinasfan
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I do agree, sadly it is more apparent every year. Look at what is going on with the kids in school. They are so fascinated with death they are killing one another.

25 Posted on 03/07/2001 08:14:30 PST by Taxula
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A modern Frankenstein probably, although he looks more like Dracula.

26 Posted on 03/07/2001 08:17:43 PST by Taxula
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OK, everyone has tripped over themselves trying to outdo each other with protestations and exclamations of disgust for this show.

Can anyone explain exactly WHY it is wrong. I've been a bodybuilder and a powerlifter, I can tell you that the human body is one of the most remarkable machines ever created by God. However, it is still just 'meat' it is not spirit.

You will not abide forever in this body, why do you have such an odd reverence for it other than as a miraculous creation. Look to the soul!

What, honestly, is the difference between this exhibition and the display of cremains in urns other than this 'looks yucky'.

Maybe I have been at one to many Dia de los Muertos festivals here in the Southwest....

27 Posted on 03/07/2001 08:19:24 PST by chookter
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I can't speak for everybody on the thread, but for me, it is wrong because it is the exploitation of the human body for money, pure and simple. It is being done for shock value. The "artist" himself admits he likes to do it because it's controversial.

When we reduce the worth of the body to an exhibition piece, I think that's a problem. And it is different than a bodybuilder's show or a runway model, because no one would suggest that the participants are only one-dimensional "objects", which is what this guy has reduced these bodies to. Many people will disagree, but I don't even think it's a good thing that we dig up and display "ancient" remains, like mummies for instance. I believe it can be debated over the scientific study, but to drag bodies around and have people walk by going "ooh, ahh" is to desecrate them, IMHO.

28 Posted on 03/07/2001 08:57:38 PST by workerbee
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I do not have a problem with the human body, I have a problem with it being used to promote death as a thing of beauty, more so than life. It is especially abhorent to know that an 8 month old child is shown through the peeled abdomen of the mother.

We all die, that is no big deal. I don't have a problem with the medical community using our bodies to find medical cures and such. But to assemble an entire exhibit and promote it as art is so much garbage. It is reverence of DEATH over LIFE as if this is not a problem in the world already.

A painting of dead people is art. Dead people are not art, they are dead. I mean honestly. If he wanted to have a get together with scientist and probe anatomy that is one thing, but ART? I don't think anyone has a problem with death or the body. I think everyone has a problem with it being called ART. I know I do.

29 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:06:12 PST by Taxula
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I can't speak for everybody on the thread, but for me, it is wrong because it is the exploitation of the human body for money, pure and simple.

Isn't that the definition of 'work'. I exploit my body every day for money. Hollywood exploits people for their bodies every day.

It is being done for shock value. The "artist" himself admits he likes to do it because it's controversial.

I find it fascinating, not shocking--it's what the viewer brings to it...

When we reduce the worth of the body to an exhibition piece, I think that's a problem. And it is different than a bodybuilder's show or a runway model, because no one would suggest that the participants are only one-dimensional "objects"

People suggest that all the time with bodybuilders and models

which is what this guy has reduced these bodies to.

That's different--a dead body is just a one-dimensional object (three dimensional actually)

Many people will disagree, but I don't even think it's a good thing that we dig up and display "ancient" remains, like mummies for instance. I believe it can be debated over the scientific study, but to drag bodies around and have people walk by going "ooh, ahh" is to desecrate them, IMHO.

Dragging your preserved body around and having people "ooh" and "ahh" over it is a heck of a lot more dignified than what the worms will do to it in the ground!

I think the bottom line is that people do not want to ponder their own mortality (of course not). In this day and age, life is so physically pleasurable that the thought of growing old, sick, and (gasp!) dying is almost untinkable!

I find this exhibition quite uplifting: "Look not to your own flesh, it is only temporary. Look to your soul, it is eternal. Gratification of the flesh is only temporal."

30 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:15:17 PST by chookter
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You are entitled to your opinion. I strongly disagree. I believe it is wrong to parade dead bodies around under the guise of art. Such action only furthers the notion that human beings are just so much tissue, to be used for whatever monetary or entertainment value we can wring from them. It is not "fear of death" to which I attribute this opinion; perhaps it is more a reverence for death (and life) and the belief that the human body deserves a greater measure of respect than just whatever "fascinating" things can be done to it.

31 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:23:38 PST by workerbee
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It is reverence of DEATH over LIFE

Is it really?

Have you ever been to or seen a 'Dia de los Muertos' festival (all souls day)--very traditional and proper in the Catholic Hispanic areas of the world. People actually dress up as skeletons and parade representations of rotted skeletons through the streets and eat skull shaped cakes--specifically to celebrate LIFE.

I think because of my exposure to this kind of thing, I see this exhibition as mocking death--very life affirming!

I have deep and great reverence for the 'thing' (soul, spirit, alma, whatever) that animates the meat-body. This exhibition is no more a celebration of death than hardcore prnography is a celebration of life....

32 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:27:43 PST by chookter
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Such action only furthers the notion that human beings are just so much tissue

We ARE 'just so much tissue'!

It's what animates that tissue that is important! God molded the 'clay' we are made of. This wacky German found an ingenious way to display the art that God made.

33 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:34:33 PST by chookter
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Oh, and another point:

It is not "fear of death" to which I attribute this opinion

Yet, if a tiger charged at you, your heart would race, your adrenal glands would fire and blood would flow to your limbs to flee or fight.

Some part of you fears death, as do we all. Would it be somehow more noble to be in a tiger's belly than to be on display?

34 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:38:49 PST by chookter
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The generation of young Gemans that Hitler had to work with had nothing on the present generation for moral debasement and embracing nihilism.

If a new Hitler arises, he will find millions of ready volunteers eager to machine gun "enemies of the state" by the pits. These new "special action commandos" will register only glee and excitement as they blow women and children to pieces at close range with their MP-5 submachine guns.

There will ba a long waiting list for the prestige jobs such as pouring the "Zyklon-B" down the vent holes into the gas chambers.

I fear for our civilization, the stage is set for a new holocaust.

Any free citizen who ever registers or gives up one single gun or bullet is delusional: our next stop is going to be the "re-location centers".

35 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:42:42 PST by Travis McGee
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How about this for performance art:

"Museum Flying In Parts Skyward, Amidst Flames and Rain of Debris".

36 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:45:11 PST by Travis McGee
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The festivals are representations of the body, not the actual body.

We ARE 'just so much tissue'!

Well, apparently you don't think so, as you espouse such strong feelings towards the soul. In any case, I don't see this exhibit in any way an honor to the spirit of the body. On the contrary, as I said, it subtracts the spiritual from human existence, depicting the body as "just a body", nothing more -- if he saw it as a house for the soul, I don't think he'd view it as entertainment. I don't think this "artist" is interested in glorifying the spiritual at all. I get a very distinct feeling of hostility towards the church and religion in general from reading his answers. Perhaps another reason I question his intentions with this exhibit -- is it all in the quest of art or merely another death-culture type flipping off the "establishment"? Something tells me he would see the Brooklyn Museum "artists" (dung-covered Mary, Yo Mama's Last Supper) as inspiring.

37 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:45:14 PST by workerbee
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That perverted wierdo can call it art if he wants...BUT I AM TELLING YOU

... THAT "WORK" OF HIS IS NO BETTER THAN THOSE DAMNED LAMP SHADES MADE OUT OF HUMAN FLESH THAT THE NAZIS WERE SO UTTERLY AND DISGUSTINGLY FOND OF!! AND,LET US NOT FORGET THE SOAP FROM HUMAN FAT!!

GOD HAVE MERCY ON THAT DEMENTED "artist"....he will need it where he is going!

38 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:53:37 PST by crazykatz
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I said, it subtracts the spiritual from human existence, depicting the body as "just a body", nothing more -- if he saw it as a house for the soul.

That's my point. The soul has fled its earthly home. It's just meat now.

Have you ever considered that, as Christians, we use the Roman instrument of Christ's torture and death as a symbol of our faith? There is some spiritual virtue in comtemplating the mortification of the flesh.

39 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:57:30 PST by chookter
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As an art historian and an art lover, I can easily tell you why this exhibition is Wrong:
1.) It uses human body parts and they are broadcast as such. Therefore, viewers will feel squeamish and sickened and the artist knows it. The revulsion is the response he is looking for; these "objects" are not examples of a perfected craft that make an aesthetic statement, much less "an arrangement of line and color" in a given medium. This is a collection of carnage and butchery.

2.) These "body parts" used to belong to "somebody, " a person, a human being (if they are real), which trivializes that person and reduces them to so much "meat." This, by itself, is unconscionable.

3.) The only "art" involved is that of God in making such marvelous bodies for humans, no credit for which belongs to this self-styled "artist" for "exposing" same. This then becomes a lesson in anatomy and cadavers, suitable for med students and not for museum visitors.

40 Posted on 03/07/2001 09:58:48 PST by MegoDittoQueen
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Agreed.

41 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:01:49 PST by sauropod
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Perhaps your pleasure at this "quite uplifting art" will come full circle, and your own skin will be ripped from your body for the next step: the "live performance art" of torturing "sub-humans" in SS and Gestapo off-duty theaters and caberets.

This is the road we are racing along.

42 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:04:23 PST by Travis McGee
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Would it be somehow more noble to be in a tiger's belly than to be on display?

The means of death seem somewhat irrelevant to the discussion, but for argument's sake....Is it more noble to be on display than in a tiger's belly? Is it more noble to be on display while in the tiger's belly? This is certainly what the "artist" wants you to believe.

The value of the human body is not a function of the number of people who view it after death, skinned and preserved. I don't have to be a voyeur to understand the beauty of human creation.

43 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:08:10 PST by workerbee
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It's later than you think.....

44 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:08:29 PST by Travis McGee
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Have you ever considered that, as Christians, we use the Roman instrument of Christ's torture and death as a symbol of our faith?

The cross and crucifix are representations of the faith. We do not actually go out and crucify 33-yr-old Jewish carpenters in order to satisfy ourselves that we believe what we believe.

45 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:14:24 PST by workerbee
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"Random" school shootings....fame....television....art....dead corpse art...

Connect the dots.

46 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:20:24 PST by Travis McGee
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The New Millennium Art Work and Artists (I use the terms loosely): Man Without A SOUL

47 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:20:55 PST by TrueBeliever9
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1.) It uses human body parts and they are broadcast as such. Therefore, viewers will feel squeamish and sickened and the artist knows it. The revulsion is the response he is looking for; these "objects" are not examples of a perfected craft that make an aesthetic statement, much less "an arrangement of line and color" in a given medium. This is a collection of carnage and butchery.

Do people taxidermy animals because they 'hate' them. (note, I am not trying to equate animals and humans, just making a small point). I think it is an aesthetic statement.

2.) These "body parts" used to belong to "somebody, " a person, a human being (if they are real), which trivializes that person and reduces them to so much "meat." This, by itself, is unconscionable.

That's my point I started with--death itself reduces us to so much meat (Death be not Proud and all that). Why is this display 'unconscionable'? A lot of early headstones had skulls and crossbones and angels. A lot of early castles and 'warks' were decorated with icons of shrouded corpses as a reminder of 'carpe diem'.

3.) The only "art" involved is that of God in making such marvelous bodies for humans, no credit for which belongs to this self-styled "artist" for "exposing" same. This then becomes a lesson in anatomy and cadavers

I agree with you here, I think the wacky german is entirely to prideful about these creations.

Suitable for med students and not for museum visitors.

I disagree with you here. We all own a body and I want to know all about how one works.

48 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:23:11 PST by chookter
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Actually, Hitler engaged in a very severe campaign against a lot of very good Art which he labelled "Degenerate."
This included most Modern Art of the time, including works by many modern masters such as Picasso, Kandinsky, Paul Klee and many others.
Hitler had all of this Art rounded up and confiscated, most of it being from the private collections of Jewish citizens.
Many museums are only NOW beginning to cough up these works, which they had bought cheaply out of Switzerland with disguised attributions, and are giving them back to the rightful heirs of these victims of the Third Reich.
It should run against my nature as an Art Historian to "ban" certain kinds of Art, whether real Art or self-styled, for the reason that this has been the occasion for abuse, but I have explained above why I dont' consider these Body Parts "art," nor will I sanction the "Yo Mama" the black, nude, female Christ photograph in Brooklyn, which I also consider a dirty version of Shock "Art."
We must be careful about banning art or bad art's advocates because too often it results in Fascistic thinking along the lines of some replies that I've read here.
Watch out when you throw the Hitler and Nazi terms around; that face in the brown shirt may belong to you!
(Notice: This artist IS German-he comes out of the very milieu of the Holocaust.)

49 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:24:56 PST by MegoDittoQueen
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Can anyone explain exactly WHY it is wrong.

Ah, the beauty of having the Desensitized run the show.

Few will suspect (what with the Wishes of the Dead and the glory of the Ghost's Machine so prominently displayed) that this marks the completion of Descartes' cruelest cut of all. They will even legitimize it by demanding it ... paying for the spectacle the same way they underwrite their own birth control, sterilization and abortion on demand.

Protestations--particularly that of the Common Era's nemesis, the Catholic Church--will ensure the deluded flock to partake of the "free expression" that is this collection of utterly meaningless human relics.

The howls of the Natural Men -- beating in vain against the eardrums of the voluntary subjects, much less the perps of this piece -- will cause many to mistakenly assume it must "mean" something.

Thanks for the bump, Travis ... things are proceeding apace. Maranatha!

50 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:25:04 PST by Askel5
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We all own a body

You were given a body.

51 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:26:48 PST by Askel5
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I'm sorry, but while you make some interesting points, most of them aren't about tissues and organs exposed, just the exteriors.
It just ain't ART-Get over it and look at something better!

52 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:27:39 PST by MegoDittoQueen
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These individuals gave their bodies vountarily. They wouldn't get my skin without a fight, at least not while I'm still alive.

Is this display symptomatic of the kind of thinking that let to the holocaust? I agree with you on lots of things, but you'll have to convince me on this one.

If you believe this to be true, you have the most intellectually consistent argument on this thread....

53 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:28:40 PST by chookter
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good point--that's what I should have said...

54 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:29:20 PST by chookter
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This is obviously another "gotta have" for the Brooklyn Museum of Art. Thoroughly disgusting!

The day isn't over yet.

55 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:30:44 PST by diotima
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Good response, and please note "we celebrate the resurrection and New Life."

56 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:31:15 PST by TrueBeliever9
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The cross and crucifix are representations of the faith. We do not actually go out and crucify 33-yr-old Jewish carpenters in order to satisfy ourselves that we believe what we believe.

Yes, but we do practice genital mutilation on nonconsentual infants as a demonstration of faith.

57 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:31:39 PST by Prism
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I'm with you, Chookter.

58 Posted on 03/07/2001 10:31:47 PST by RightWhale
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Who cares if the artist is German? Art value? I will let the desensitized ghouls debate that.

This is one more click of the ratchet on the road to Aushwitz. If this cannot be condemned, how can "performance bestiality"