A Mormon confronts his myths: faces expulsion for refuting link between Indians and Israelites

National Post ^ | December 03, 2002 | Jan Cienski

[conservonator]

I am indeed a uniter.

Uniter
Nice Heretic
Doctor

Better watch out, pretty soon you’ll have more titles than the Blessed Virgin does ;)

[drstevej]

***Better watch out, pretty soon you’ll have more titles than the Blessed Virgin does ;) ***

Some of the titles I've been given on FR I do not deserve. I'm sure Mary can relate. :<)

[conservonator]

Some of the titles I've been given on FR I do not deserve. I'm sure Mary can relate. :<)

LoL

[pseudogratix]

They are and have been discussing it at other forums if you are interested. Here are some (do a search for "DNA" at the respective forums):

FAIRLDS.ORG - http://www.fair-lds.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi

WHYPROPHETS.COM - http://12.254.229.34/forums/whyprophets/

ZLMB - http://pub26.ezboard.com/bpacumenispages

In addition, here are couple of links to articles on the subject (LDS apologetic sites):

DNA and the Book of Mormon -
http://www.fairlds.org/apol/bom/bom01.html

Does DNA evidence refute
the Book of Mormon? -
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml

[nina0113]

Mr. Livingstone explained away Mr. Murphy's survey of genetic research by saying that God may have changed Indian DNA "to create different languages,"

Mm-hmm. I once met someone who was convinced that God had put the dinosaur bones in the Earth to test our faith - there never were any live dinosaurs. Guess this guy's related.

[Utah Girl]

I'll discuss it when I get home. And Murphy is being disingenuous about his membership in the LDS church. He freely admits he doesn't attend church, nor live by some of the LDS beliefs. He just wants to circulate in the Mormon intellectual circles. And blames the LDS church if he is excommunicated for ruining the relationship between him and his family.

I won't get into the works vs grace debate though. I've discussed and talked about it ad nauseum on this religious forum, doesn't seem to make a bit of difference what we LDS say. Talk to you all later.

[wai-ming]

I am indeed a uniter.

You a uniter? Hah!

Everyone who believes that, stand on the right.

The rest of you, stand on the left.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

Christ said " I am sent to none but only the LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.
So why was he born in Judea instead of America?

About 30 years ago a mormon egyptologist was given the task of translating the then rediscovered mormon book of ABRAHAM. He found it to be nothing more than an abreviation of the BOOK OF THE DEAD called the book of Breathings, an Egyptian book of spells. He then left the mormon church taking his family with him.

When the tribes returned from the Babylonian captivity and rebuilt the Temple at the dedication sacrifices were made for ALL of the tribes of Israel.
Anna of the "lost tribe of ASHER" was present in Jerusalem when Jesus was dedicated at the temple. If mormonism is correct how did she get from one continent to another?

[fishtank]

"I won't get into the works vs grace debate though. I've discussed and talked about it ad nauseum on this religious forum, doesn't seem to make a bit of difference what we LDS say. Talk to you all later."

I want to go back and read those threads, since I got involved with the Religion forum after that thread was dried up.

Just something I've been thinking about, though. Most of the time, it seems that most of the sermons about the (evangelical) meaning of grace (as God's free, unmerited gift) are taken from texts written by Paul (like from Ephesians, Romans, Galatians, etc.)
Many, many of Jesus' parables also reflect this meaning of grace, and I find meditating on Jesus' parables in this light is very beneficial.

[Utah Girl]

And I believe Paul's words also and have studied them over the years. This next year (2003) we are studying the New Testament in Sunday School. We studied the Old Testament in 2002.

[Grig]

"So why was he born in Judea instead of America? "

Are not the people in Judea were Isrealites? Last I checked they were. Christ did go to the Nephites after his resurection, and the other lost tribes too. He kept his word and went to the lost sheep of Isreal, not just the Jews.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

3 Nephi 15
14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.

15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.

16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:

17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.

24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

[Grig]

"There is a hill called Cumorah in New York State that was the site of a massive battle between the "lamanites" and the "nephites"...Surely there must be some remnant to substantiate the Mormon claims."

There was a hill called Cumorah where the battle took place, and afterwards Moroni took the plates very far away and hid them in the side of a hill that we today call Cumorah, after the name of that first hill. They are not the same hill at all. You will not find Windsor Castle in London, when it's London, Ontario you are looking for it in.

If you want to look over some finding that do substantiate our claims, check these out:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai024.html

[John Locke]

In the poem, Bede talks about the banqueting hall being our ordinary existence and Weinberg's comment on this is, "It is an almost irresistible temptation to believe with the Venerable Bede that there must be something for us outside the banqueting hall."

Here's the text:

Your Majesty, when we compare the present life of man on earth with that time of which we have no knowledge, it seems to me like the swift flight of a single sparrow through the banqueting-hall where you are sitting at dinner on a winter's day with your thains and counsellors. In the midst there is a comforting fire to warm the hall; outside the storms of winter rain or snow are raging. This sparrow flies swiftly in through one door of the hall, and out through another. While he is inside, he is safe from the winter storms; but after few moments of comfort, he vanishes from sight into the wintry world from where he came.

Bede, Ecclesiastical History of the English People (Historia ecclesiastica gentis anglorum).

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

Ye worship ye know not what. We know what we worship for SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS! JOHN 4:22
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel
Which is not another.
But though we or an ANGEL FROM HEAVEN preach any other gospel than that we have preached LET HIM BE ACCURSED.
As we said before, so I say again, If any MAN preach any other gospel unto you than what you have received LET HIM BE ACCURSED! PAUL to the Galatians 1:6-9

[freedom9]

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/cumorah.htm

"EARLY BRETHREN LOCATE CUMORAH IN WESTERN NEW YORK. It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history....

[restornu]

Here you are in the year 2002 and after the death of Christ. Men of this world sat around arguing the Nature of the Godhead with appointed political clery of Constantine . As they argued the various combination of 3 in 1 enity in one mind , or 3 seperate entiy of one mind etc. The Nicene Creed has settled on taking 3 seperate personages put them all in one pactage called the Trinity now who is preaching another Gosple?

If you want to believe it is 3 in one entity fine! The LDS says it is 3 separate entity of one mind, just like those who come unto Christ are suppose to be of one mind! Just for the record we have in the past discussed endlessly and are at an impasse! Have no interest in rehashing this again!

[restornu]

Correction- Here you are in the year 2002 and after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Men of this world sat around arguing the Nature of the Godhead with appointed political clery of Constantine.

[restornu]

The Tanners have been caught in so many lies, ommisions, distortion etc. I don't even bother correcting their stuff anymore, I do have a life choose not to spend it on those who have no creditability!

[fishtank]

Do you have a site which mentions these things?

Thanks.

[fishtank]

Hi restore,

Even before "Indiana Jones" I've been interested in archeology. I was reading about some of the Mormon relics, like the Book of Abraham, the Kinderhook Plates and the Salamander Letter. Were/are the Tanners accurate about their analysis of these items?

Also, if you have your ear to the ground, does anyone ever expect to find the missing 116 pages of the BoM? That would be interesting if they were ever found.