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When The Pope's Friends Walk Away
TCRnews.com ^
| 7-25-2002
| Stephen Hand
Posted on 07/25/2002 5:31:43 AM PDT by Notwithstanding
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To: saradippity
I would love to see documentation of the infiltration of the seminaries by communists.
441
posted on
07/26/2002 2:20:55 PM PDT
by
narses
To: ultima ratio
No one denies there were creeps in the Church in the old days. They were the exception. We're talking subculture here. Open dissent regarding Church teachings on morality. Dissent was never tolerated before Vatican II. Never. As they said in Monty Python's "Holy Grail," "pull the other one."
Catholic Ecclesiastical history is replete with stories that render your pronuoncement nugatory. In about 1060, St Peter Damian wrote his famous treatise againsthomosexuality so abundant were they an ddissent abounded in various ages....read some history of Bishops selling Jurisdiction, married priests with kids skuolking about..come on..you live in a dream world
To: Bud McDuell
Where is the UNITY in worship over the past 40 years: English Masses, Spanish Masses, Hearing Impaired Masses, Gay Pride Masses, Charismatic Masses, Children's Masses, Folk Masses, Easter Bunny Masses,.................and the only Mass which is not welcome........ THE MASS OF ALL TIME The Mass has not changed since Holy Thursday. The Mass is the action of Jesus offering Himself as a Sacrifice of propitiation to God for our benefit through the Priesthood He established. The Liturgy has changed innumerable times
To: ultima ratio
Not recognize that it is a sacrifice and not a meal? I don't think so. I've been to the Novus Ordo. It's almost identical to the Lutheran worship Balderdash. Name a protestant church that uses our Eucharistic prayers.
FYI, the REAL, OLD Roman Rite was SIMPLE. They used a TABLE..read some history please as your mistakes are prolific. The VAST majority of what you consider ROMAN didnt even initiate there
To: Polycarp
You are confusing doctrine with discipline.
Nope. Never have, never will, Never did with that query. Not long ago I saw you repeatedly defend the discipline of celibacy as if it were Church doctrine.
I freq. reference "The Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy" by Fr Cochini. I have never suggested it was doctrine. That is your problem and your problems in interpretation are not my responsibility Please go learn the difference before you post further insults to those who have displayed that they at least grasp this foundational difference.
Please cite where I came even close to doing what you falsely accuse me of doing. If you can source your false charge and prove it accurate, I'll buy you a Catholic Dictionary so you can learn the difference. To engage in dispassioned critique and debate of the form of the liturgy is not to engage in deciding for ourselves what Doctrines we can accept.
You are a pyromaniac in a field of straw men You are making the same fatal error as your Mr Hand, proof of the poor fruits of his purposeful blurring of distinctions between dissent on papal authority or the validity and licitness of the mass and the completely legitimate discussion of the prudence of the disciplinary changes in the liturgy. Your inane charges are unsubstantiated and incapable of being proven. Go ahead..I can wait...prove them to be true You are proving my thesis here with these posts of yours. You don't realise you are making an ass of yourself. Try reading more carefuly next time
To: Polycarp
The Church tells us that to be Catholic, we need to be in UNITY inWorship That must be big news to the many other valid liturgical rites besides the modern "Latin" rite.
To: Polycarp
That must be big news to the many other valid liturgical rites besides the modern "Latin" rite. Poly, you KNOW I love to argue, so, could you at least arrive on the rhetorical field of battle with at least ONE weapon? :)
To: narses
First you tell me I am not a Catholic Just trying to be helpful and now you say, "Seriously, I think you ought to reconsider your presence as a Freeper person". very solicitous, I thought Your chutpah (chutzpah) is amazing. I have tried responding to you with manners and compassion. Your last post is beyond me. Too bad. It was well written and made some excellent points If you attack me, I will respond. You attack The Magisterium you are in my bailiwick.Can't handle the battle, clam-up and STOP attacking The Magisterium In the begining I responded to refute your dishonest attacks. My DEFENSE of the Magisterium was proved by my sourcing. Sitetest and Patent also pinned you on your errors. Deal with it like a man Then to ask you to stop. If you mean your presence on my 'ping' list, that was a gift from Maryz. I ping articles I think might be interesting to those on that list. I will happily remove you if that irritates you. It CERTAINLY is not meant as an invitation to attack me. You are the one that CONTINUALLY posts personally to me. SEE THE "TO" you keep using my name in? Good grief. I have told you who I am. I have told you how I defend the Faith. You know how I use rhetoric. You HAVE to begin to take responsibility for your own actions and stop acting like a juvenile. You CONTINUE to post to me personally, I WILL respond and I will not have one like you, one who militates AGAINST The Magisterium cow me into changing how I defend the faith.
To: Polycarp; sitetest
To each his own. I don't expect Hand to file a lengthy brief footnoted with references in an OPINION piece. I think it a good piece and OPINION pieces OUGHT to generate commentary. He succeeded. Look at the length of this thread
To: ultima ratio
This Pope is treading on dangerous ground.
Certainly he is treading on seldom trod upon ground. It is ineluctable he will be called "Great" and SSPX pipsqueaks who criticise and attack him will never be remembered
To: Catholicguy
You have shown no manners in your posts to me, you have been dishonest and I will ask that you stop attacking me, again. It is getting old and tiresome. As far as your defense of our faith, I applaud your motives, but your dishonest actions belie your stated intentions. Good cannot come from evil and your actions in dishonestly attacking me after I've asked you to stop fit that bill. Remove the beam from your own eye before you worry about the mote in mine.
451
posted on
07/26/2002 3:33:11 PM PDT
by
narses
To: ultima ratio
This is my final post for a while Take some time to read some Liturgical History. I suggest "The Mass of the Roman Rite" a two volume history by FR Joseph Jungmann. It is easy to read and is INCREDIBLY well sourced. You NEED to read some real history because you continually made easily-correctable errors re "The Mass of all times"
To: Catholicguy; Bud McDuell; narses
The Mass has not changed since Holy Thursday. The Mass is the action of Jesus offering Himself as a Sacrifice of propitiation to God for our benefit through the Priesthood He established.Are you saying all Masses, regardless of form and content, are equally pleasing to God? If so, why can I not assist at a SSPX Mass?
To: Land of the Irish
Are you saying all Masses, regardless of form and content, are equally pleasing to God? If so, why can I not assist at a SSPX Mass? You can do anything you desire. THAT is what maintaing UNITY is all about. You have the authority to follow your own Will in whatever you desire. Go to an SSPX Mass or an SSPV Mass (do we have an SSP2.5 yet?). Nothing matters, baby. Do your own thing. That is the essence of Unity
To: Catholicguy
Sorry, baby, I'm not interested in Unity with the likes of Law, Mahoney, ..., Weakland, ....Cawcutt...
You have the authority to follow your own Will in whatever you desire.
Are you quoting the Pope from one of the Assisi meetings?
To: narses
You have shown no manners in your posts to me You sound awfully judgemental, you have been dishonest I have been honest and open with you. I have not gone behind your back. I CONTINUALLY tell you that if you post to me personally I will respond and I will ask that you stop attacking me,again I am not attacking you and I think everyone on this thread can see you are the one that continually posts to me personally, and, I would be surprised if I were the only one who didn't think that perhaps one reason, unacknowledged perhaps, is that your continued posting to me personally might draw a response that would cause me to be banned; although, of course, that is not what I am charging you with doing. . It is getting old and tiresome. and yet YOU keep posting personally to me. When will you begin to take responsibility for your actions? As far as your defense of our faith, I applaud your motives, but your dishonest actions Sorry, Ace. Repitition of error does not change a false charge into a truismm belie your stated intentions. Good cannot come from evil I am glad that wasn't a personal attack :) and your actions in dishonestly attacking me I am not attacking you. I am defending myself. I am a victim :) after I've asked you to stop You CONTINUALLY personally post to me. Odd fit that bill. Remove the beam from your own eye before you worry about the mote in mine. Back at ya, Ace. Now, if you don't desire that this continue STOP POSTING TO ME PERSONALLY..sheesh :)
To: narses
Even as I sent that, I knew it was a mistake. Perhaps you can't stop yourself from contacting me. That is understandable :) You should see me in person :)
So, I propose to help you break the attachment. I will not respond to your continuing personal posts to me. You seem incapable of taking responsibility for your own actions in this area so I will take control. I will not respond to your personal posts to me no matter how many times you send them
To: Catholicguy
Thank you. Perhaps you could also refrain from attacking me.
458
posted on
07/26/2002 4:13:01 PM PDT
by
narses
To: Catholicguy
O.k. Bud, ultima ratio, shall I go on..they are all about you on many threads
If I'm not mistaken, the very first post ever by freeper ultima ratio was #176 today in this thread, at 5:41 am Friday. Then ultima ratio's second post as a freeper, at 8:06 am. In yours of 8:32 am, after two posts, you're already accusing ultima ratio of ... what?
From
ultima ratio's home page: signed up 2002-07-25
To: Catholicguy
You type: I look forward to the time when you ask someone to "withdraw" their attacks against The Magisterium. I can send you a list of names.
I typed:
Point them out to me on freerepublic.com.
You misunderstood me. Point out to me the attacks of the Magisterium. I'm interested when folks use words such as 'quisling'. I forget what I asked you to withdraw in the other thread (the one where freeper theotokos got banned), which thread I can't find now.
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