Posted on 01/11/2018 6:54:52 PM PST by Salvation
Don’t worry Els. In Heaven, where ONLY ONLY ONLY born again believers will go, you will get a new brain, and I doubt your memory will ever go away. 👍 No false religions will be tolerated in Heaven. None. 👎
Well isn’t that convenient. Only Rome is allowed to ‘interpret,’ despite the fact that Rome is made of... MAN!
And because Rome has claimed sole interpretive power, they can say that when Paul says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast” it actually means that we ARE saved by works.
How very very convenient for them.
You are correct sir. Peter DEFINITELY wanted the people to interpret and understand scripture. What he meant was, some dude didn’t decide one day, that he had a great understanding of spiritual issues, and therefore, he would write up his own scripture version of events. Not even close. Of course we can do YOPIOS.
Believers are commanded to “study to show themselves approved, rightly handling the Word of Truth.”
The Roman position Adsum posted is an anti-Scriptural falsehood. It is the opposite of what Scripture teaches...
just like their system of false sacramental works is the opposite of Biblical grace.
Purgatory?
Heaven??
Somewhere else???
That is another ouch. There have been several ouches on this thread. How about a good Limerick on ouches?
So much for the "helmet of salvation"
Catholics NEVER get the meaning of *sola scriptura* correct.
They then throw out their idea of what they think it is and condemn us for believing in something we don’t believe in.
Catholicism Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines. Yet claim that all Catholics are in communion with the Roman church.
And these differences are greater than those which separate most non-Catholic churches, save the cults.
The Holy Spirit (the filioque)
In EO - The third person of the Trinity, proceeding from the Father alone as in the original Nicene Creed. The Father sends the Spirit at the intercession of the Son. The Son is therefore an agent only in the procession of the Spirit.
In RC - 'When the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, He is not separated from the Father, He is not separated from the Son'.
Mary - Assumption and Immaculate conception of
EO - The Assumption is accepted and it is agreed that Mary experienced physical death, but the Immaculate conception is rejected. Orthodox belief is that the guilt of original sin is not transmitted from one generation to the next, thus obviating the need for Mary to be sinless.
RC - Both are dogmas of the church. The church has not as yet decided whether Mary actually experienced Physical death. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception states that Mary, was at conception 'preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin' and should not be confused with the virgin birth.
Pope - Authority of
EO - As the Bishop of Rome, he has a primacy of honour when Orthodox, not of jurisdiction. At present, his primacy is not effective as the papacy needs to be reformed in accordance with Orthodoxy. His authority is thus no greater or lesser than any of his fellow Bishops in the church.
RC - The Pope is the 'Vicar of Christ' i.e. the visible head of the church on earth and spiritual successor of St. Peter. He has supreme authority (including that over church councils) within Christendom (The Power of the keys).
Pope - Infallibility of
EO - Papal Infallibility is rejected. The Holy Spirit acts to guide the church into truth through (for example) ecumenical councils. This Orthodoxy recognises the first seven ecumenical councils (325-787) as being infallible.
RC - The Pope is infallible when, through the Holy Spirit, he defines a doctrine on faith and morals that is to be held by the whole church. This is a dogma and is therefore a required belief within Catholicism.
Purgatory
EO - An intermediate state between earth and heaven is recognised, but cleansing and purification occur in this life, not the next.
RC - A place of cleansing and preparation for heaven. Also a place where the punishment due to unremitted venial sins may be expiated.
We are all expected to learn God’s Truth and live according to His will.
And if we don't live according to His will, what happens?
Matthew 16:18 - http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm
Jesus said that Peter was *petros*(masculine) and that on this *petra*(feminine) He would build His church.
Greek: 4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros (”small stone”) then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra (”cliff, boulder,” Abbott-Smith).
“4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff” (TDNT, 3, 100). “4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).
4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – “a mass of connected rock,” which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is “a detached stone or boulder” (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a “solid or native rock, rising up through the earth” (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.
4073 (petra) is “a projecting rock, cliff (feminine noun) . . . 4074 (petros, the masculine form) however is a stone . . . such as a man might throw” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).
It’s also a strange way to word the sentence that He would call Peter a rock and say that on this I will build my church instead of *on you* as would be grammatically correct in talking to a person.
There is no support from the original Greek that Peter was to be the rock on which Jesus said he would build His church. The nouns are not the same, one being masculine and the other being feminine. They denote different objects.
Also, here, Paul identifies who petra is, and that is Christ. This link takes you to the Greek.
http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/10-4.htm
1 Corinthians 10:1-4 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock (petra) that followed them, and the Rock (petra) was Christ.
http://biblehub.com/text/romans/9-33.htm
Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
http://biblehub.com/text/1_peter/2-8.htm
1 Peter 2:1-8 So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.
As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
and
“A stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
All occurrences of *petra* in the Greek.
I agree MM, but trying to get works based religionists to understand, is an exercise in futility. 😀👍
In using it, one must always remember that the KJV/AV defines Strong's Concordance, not vice versa. In his lexicon, Strong does list the word "rock" in the etymology of Πέτρος, as well as an occurrence in the Bible text, but in that entry he is wrong and abandons his own rules for forming the dictionary. According to the concordance section, the number 4074 for Πέτρος never ever appears associated with the English "rock" or "rocks" anywhere in the KJV/AV. Repeat: not ever, anywhere. Apparently the Romanist/Anglican myth had gotten to him, and prejudiced that entry.
And the negation of any connection between "Peter" and "rock" is also seen in the Bible software e-Sword, where a search for the words "rock" or "rocks" finds no association with G4074 Πέτρος whatsoever; and neither does another fine resource, Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
On the other hand, under "stone" Vine does not list "petros" as a literal object, but he does have this entry:
Note: In John 1:42 petros stands for the proper name, Peter, as the R.evised V.ersion (A.V,, "a stone" ; marg., "Peter"); petros denotes a piece of a rock, a detached stone or boulder, in contrast to petra, a mass of rock, See ROCK.But there, under ROCK, Vine has only one entry for the KJV/AV, as follows:
1. PETRA (πέτρα) denotes a mass of rock, as distinct from petros, a detached stone or boulder, or a stone that might be thrown or easily moved. For the narure of petra, see Matt. 7:24,25; 27:51,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 6:48 (twice), a type of a sure foundation (here the true reading as in the R.V., "because it had been well builded"); Rev. 6:15,16 (cp. Is. 2:19,ff.; Hos. 10:8); Luke 8:6,13 used illustratively; 1 Cor. 10:4 (twice), figuratively, of Christ; in Rom. 9:33 and 1 Pet. 2:8, metaphorically, of Christ; in Matt. 16:18, metaphorically, of Christ and the testimony concerning Him; here the distinction between petra. concerning the Lord Himself, and Petros, the Apostle, is clear (see above).What is abundantly clear is that in the Greek and in the KJV/AV, there is absolutely no connection between Simon ("Peter") the person and the concept of "rock" in any way. Furthermore, the Scripture translation of the Aramaic "Cephas" as defining "Petros" as (a) "rock" was not the interpreted meaning. This panel of scholars, experts in the Biblical languages and their cognates, assigned the verbal meaning of "stone" to both "Petros" and "Cephas," and I am good with that, quite solid, actually.
Moreover, while in John 1:42 Jesus told Simon that he would be called "Cephas," as well as assigming that label to him, nowhere in the Greek or the KJV/AV does it ever appear that He personally or familiarly addressed Simon bar Jona as "Cephas" or as "Petros." Nowhere at all does He ever intimate that Simon had the reliability or quality of the geological bedding (symbolically) that He would build His organization of totally committed, regenerated, inducted, and integrated believer-disciple-priests.
The very idea of Simon being the bedrock and papal aristocrat of a two-level clergy/laity exclusive club is not only an ill-conceived fiction; it is just plain silly.
But, discussing the figurative-literal language in using "stones" in building local church organizations from town to town--yes, it is a very fitting concept that Jesus would start with a solid foundation of the apostles and prophets, seen as components of a great and glorious culture of local churches, and be their foundational Head.
And such ashlars literally used for building the Temple and its walls are hewn from the solid rock outcropping, which in Greek can be referred to as η πετρα (the Rock)(Christ in you, the hope of Glory). Of course (no pun), symbolic stones make up the foundation of the spiritual House of God (as I know you are aware):
Ephesians 2:20-23 AV:
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself
being the chief corner stone*;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
=====
* = added interpretively by the translators
And Peter himself used the same figurative example:
1 Peter 2:4-8 AV
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
=====
Let us not be stumbling blocks but rather stepping stones for those seekers who want and need to approach the foot of the Cross for a faith-based (not a Peter-based nor Church-based) salvation. It's time to drop the Peter-as-a-foundation controversy as being quite puerile.
The exception being the monolith (with cracks) known as CatholicISM.
Where's the list?
Or is this yet another assumed 'fact' that EVERYONE knows?
These 'words of Jesus' have been ignored countless times in this thread...
We are all expected to learn God’s Truth and live according to His will.
Well; we can ALL see how well the 'church' has followed THIS!!!
The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.
But new findings in the study of the Live Sea Scrolls® have produced the missing words; lost for SOooo long; between HIM and SHALL...
...and regularly and religiously performs the Sacrements...
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