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[Catholic Caucus] Fatima’s October 13 Apparition: More Than Meets the Eye
National Catholic Register ^ | October 13, 2017 | JOSEPH PRONECHEN

Posted on 10/13/2017 9:29:50 PM PDT by ebb tide


A crowd watches the ‘Miracle of the Sun’ during the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima on October 13, 1917. (Illustração Portuguesa)

We’re heard much about the Miracle of the Sun, thanks be to God, that startled 70,000-plus people at the Cova da Iria 100 years ago on Oct. 13.

Instead of repeating basic details of the Miracle that Our Lady had promised in July saying, in October I will tell you who I am and what I want. I will then perform a miracle so that all may believe, and in August repeated, In the last month I will perform a miracle so that all may believe, and again in September reminded, In October I will perform a miracle so that all may believe, let’s look at what some eyewitnesses to the miracle said, and importantly, some basics of what Lucia described about that day and later emphasized were major instructions from Our Lady for all of us.

(Excerpt) Read more at ncregister.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS: fatima
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To: piusv

are you a communist? How do you know I am not a catholic?


21 posted on 10/14/2017 6:52:48 AM PDT by Dont tread and Live
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To: Dont tread and Live

I never said you weren’t Catholic. If you are, why are you defending others who are breaking forum rules by asking whether I heard of “freedom”?


22 posted on 10/14/2017 7:01:36 AM PDT by piusv (Pray for a return to the pre-Vatican II (Catholic) Faith)
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To: Disambiguator

We Catholics don’t worship Mary, we venerate her.

One of the many misconceptions about our faith is that we worship saints, which is not true- we worship God alone. We ask the Saints, including Mary, to pray for us to the Lord our God.

Just like we may ask loved ones to say a prayer, we ask the saints to intercede for us to God.


23 posted on 10/14/2017 8:33:45 AM PDT by Katydidnt ("...the greatest of these is love.")
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To: Katydidnt

We ask the Saints, including Mary, to pray for us to the Lord our God.


Why not pray directly to God?


24 posted on 10/14/2017 8:43:47 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: piusv

maybe religious topics should be dealt with on the religion forum?


25 posted on 10/14/2017 9:58:42 AM PDT by Dont tread and Live
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To: Dont tread and Live

This is the religion forum.


26 posted on 10/14/2017 10:20:00 AM PDT by piusv (Pray for a return to the pre-Vatican II (Catholic) Faith)
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To: PeterPrinciple

Of course, we do that too, and most of the time! I was just trying to address the ‘worship’ of Mary misconception.

Don’t you ever ask anyone to pray for you? I say the more, the merrier!


27 posted on 10/14/2017 10:35:16 AM PDT by Katydidnt ("...the greatest of these is love.")
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To: BlueDragon
Approximately 4th century. Much earlier than that, only among Gnostics.

Ah, let me see if I understand your view here. The entire orthodox Christian world knew nothing of the veneration of Mary.

Then in the 4th century, the entire ancient Church from India to Africa to Gaul suddenly realized "Golly gee! The Gnostics must be right!" and flipped over like a light switch.

And no one objected to this? Not one voice was raised against it? And just this *one* tenet of gnosticism was adopted, while the rest was despised as a heretical abomination from the pit of hell?

28 posted on 10/15/2017 1:48:44 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud

There is difference between prayers about, and concerning 'departed saints', and prayer directed TO departed saints, Mary included.

The latter (specific type of prayer) was what was generally missing prior to the 4th and 5th centuries, with it present first among Gnostics prior to then, and then somewhat famously among the Collyridrians who set out little cakes for Mary, "Queen of Heaven", and for doing so were judged to be heretical by Epiphanius of Salamis.

No, it was more like a subtle shift from veneration, to adoration, to prayer addressed directly towards "Mary" requesting her own personal intercessions.

Epiphanius did;

St. Ambrose;

At about the time of both those men was were things took off as for what can be rightfully referred to as 'cult of Mary'. St. Epiphanius, himself a devotee of Mary, serves as something of a way-point, a marker of sorts for what was more widely accepted among the learned, and what during his own era was considered to be going too far with it.

Prior to his own era, although there is trace enough for Mary being venerated, including being prayed about in gratitude and thankfulness to God for such as her and many others too, in addition to thankfulness to the Father for Jesus -- prayers directed to anyone but the One Eternal God is not among tradition as handed down by the chosen apostles. That is what I'm saying. Not something else, not some silly set-up as you've proposed.

29 posted on 10/15/2017 4:08:11 AM PDT by BlueDragon (..and that's the thing do you recognize the bells of truth when you hear them ring)
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To: BlueDragon

Ah! A “subtle” shift! So subtle that the entire Christian world over 3 continents never even noticed it was even happening? Perhaps you are confusing “subtle” with “nonexistent”.

Collyridianism is heretical. That was no shift. Read the text of the Mass, and find me one place where the priest says anything like “I offer this oblation unto you, O Mary”...etc.

http://latinmass.com/1962ordinaryofthemass.html

Because that’s what the Collyridians were doing.

And your contention that prayer is only offered to God is flat out wrong.

If you’ve read older works I’m sure you’ve seen all over the place constructions like “I pray thee” or “I pray you” ...spoken to another living human being. Prayer is just asking. That’s all it is.

http://www.etymonline.com/word/Pray

What you cannot do is *sacrifice* to anyone but God. The emperors didn’t want the martyrs pray to false gods but wanted them to offer a pinch of incense. That’s what the Collyridians were doing with Our Lady, and Epiphanius rightly condemns it as vile heresy. Does he ever condemn praying to Our Lady though? Asking for her intercession?

See some folks forgot what their own language meant. We didn’t.


30 posted on 10/15/2017 5:10:39 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud

From prayers that included thanksgiving for the departed from among the early Church, to addressing those departed saints directly, there was a "subtle shift". If that were not so, then there would not be the very absence of such specific aspects included that I'm talking about.

That shift (or could it be said --addition) has long been recognized by many, and excused, justifying the development by appealing to 'the consciousness of the Church' and the like, putting it as being part of an expanding revelation.

In one sense that sort of thing could be compared to Gnosticism (secret knowledge) gone mainstream...

Which "Mass"? The Latin Mass, alone? Why even restrict search to "text of the Mass"? That's a rather artificial restriction. The little cakes set out for "Mary" and the hailing her as "Queen of Heaven" wasn't restricted to being within recitations of Liturgy, yet was deemed heretical.

You say it was due to a sacrifice being offered...and so was deemed heretical for that reason?

What of sacrifice of praise? The most ancient Church gave thanks and praise to God for having provided those whom were regarded as "departed saints", even imploring God to not forget them. Yet did so (in earliest times) without including recommendations that such persons should be prayer to directly for their own personal intercessions.

Just where is the oldest prayer specifically addressed TO Mary instead of being about her, or in thankfulness and acknowledgment for her, other saints found? Do you know?

If the remembering goes back to the 4th and 5th centuries, then you have something.

Where though, from prior, yet more ancient times (remember -- you did day that word "ancient", hence my objection here) such as in late 3rd to early 4th century is the memory of prayer to departed saints that includes addressing them specifically while requesting their own intercession?

Looking East there are traces of "veneration of Mary" gone to full-on prayer directed specifically towards Mary due to her own 'merits' (including among early Christian history's Gnostics), and some bare, isolated traces to the South sometime in the 3rd and early 4th centuries -- but in the Western Church, (for which records are best, it could be said?) earlier than about that time there is none that I know of that includes directly imploring those who would be mentioned during liturgical presentation, including among liturgy more generally what's recorded as being outside (and perhaps alongside) what has come down to more recent eras as formalized "Mass" in the Western Church, yet was still part of the overall records of what took place, and what was said during times of worship. Some liturgical presentations would go on for many hours...

31 posted on 10/15/2017 6:01:53 AM PDT by BlueDragon (..and that's the thing do you recognize the bells of truth when you hear them ring)
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To: BlueDragon
If that were not so, then there would not be the very absence of such specific aspects included that I'm talking about.

Nonsense. An absence of evidence doesn't prove anything either way. You would need either a positive example of it being done (to support my side), or a specific condemnation NOT to do it (to support your side).

But we can help clear the fog of the pre-Nicene period with the following logic.

IF there was a shift in Marian prayer, and the shift went against standard practice or orthodoxy, then someone would have probably complained. But no one did. It wasn't listed in the heresies that Epiphanius collected, as the Collyridian heresy was. It was simply accepted widely and without any controversy.

Your idea that no one complained because it happened so subtly is rather strained. Nothing happens that subtly.

Just where is the oldest prayer specifically addressed TO Mary instead of being about her, or in thankfulness and acknowledgment for her, other saints found? Do you know?

The Sub Tuum Praesidium. On a papyrus dated variously from the mid-3rd to the 4th century.

32 posted on 10/17/2017 12:09:44 PM PDT by Claud
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