Question: "What is the church?"

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[BipolarBob]

During these talks were instructions given.

You are suggesting God said to Adam "Here's the third rock from the sun. Have fun. I'll check in on you from time to time?"

OR when God confronted Cain about his slain brother. Did Cain (in his George Costanza voice) say "Was that wrong? Should I have not done that? If I had any idea that kind of action was frowned upon it could have been avoided"
The Ten Commandments have been with us from the beginning. Cain knew it was wrong.

[BipolarBob]

The Law was just given to the Chosen people, huh?

Romans 3:22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile.
Romans 11:25,26 A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

All Israel shall be saved. You can be grafted in with this saved group. Follow His Laws and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Elsie]

Aw...  shucks...

 

[Elsie]

You are suggesting God said to Adam...

Read closely and you'll see that I 'suggest' nothing.

Far be it from me to guess what GOD may have done or said in the blank spots.

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6

Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit,

so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written."

Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

[Elsie]

The Law was just given to the Chosen people, huh?

That's what the Book says; does it not?

---

Romans 3:22

This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile.

Where's the LAW?

It's not in your next verses either.

[af_vet_1981]

The Law was given to everybody. It was instituted at Creation. Adam and Eve worshiped on the Sabbath. The ceremonial laws were given only to the Hebrews to cleanse them. To prepare them for the coming Messiah. Those ceremonial laws are expired but the Ten Commandments never expire. They were wrote in stone for a purpose. They are kept in Heaven for a purpose. They were kept by Christ for a purpose. Jesus kept the Sabbath and stated "If ye love Me, keep My Commandments" John 14:15.

There are glaring inconsistencies with this line of thought.
1. The greatest commandment, as taught by Jesus Christ, is not one the Ten Commandments, cited in Deuteronomy (and previously listed in Exodus). The Shema and Ahavta (Chapter Six), recited daily by observant Jews, appear after the Ten Commandments (Chapter Five).
2. The second great commandment, as taught by Jesus Christ, is also not among the Ten Commandments. It appears in Leviticus (Chapter Nineteen)
3. The Bible does not divide the Law into the Ten Commandments and everything else, nor between the civil, moral, and ceremonial laws. Men can organized the laws by any number of criteria. The Bible does not.
4. Jesus Christ taught that until heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the law (obviously not just from the Ten Commandments), and that whosoever shall break one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
5. The Book of Revelation refers three times to "the commandments" and the saints that keep them.
6. Those that seek to keep "the commandments" cannot keep all 613 of them as literally written due to historical realities.
7. Jesus Christ gave the Apostle Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose. The Apostle Peter, in communion with the other Apostles and their brethren peers, judged that the Gentiles were not obligated to keep all the laws, just certain laws.
8. The solution seems obvious to me. Moses' Seat had become Peter's Seat, as it were so the one holy catholic and apostolic church could teach the truth to all men. This, it seems to me, is the only plausible authority for Sunday becoming the Christian day of rest and worship. It is solely by tradition and when that tradition is rejected, one gravitates back to the Law of Moses for Shabbat and all the other commandments that may be kept (circumcision, dietary, holydays, etc.).

[BipolarBob]

This, it seems to me, is the only plausible authority for Sunday becoming the Christian day of rest and worship. I

We are in agreement. That is the only rational reason for man to accept Sunday as the day of rest and worship. They have submitted to Rome.

They certainly have not submitted to God.

[af_vet_1981]

We are in agreement. That is the only rational reason for man to accept Sunday as the day of rest and worship. They have submitted to Rome.

They certainly have not submitted to God.

Is is not just all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. It was all the churches. The change occurred early (by end of First Century: see Didache, Letter of Barnabas, Ignatius of Antioch) and became predominant, eventually being ruled in the Council of Laodicea.

Historically, sabbatariansim is a relatively modern restorationist movement, except for Ethiopian Orthodox who began worshipping for two days (Saturday and Sunday) in the Twelth Century.

[BipolarBob]

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the (Catholic) Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her;—she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.

Rome claims to have made the change. Look up A Doctrinal catechism by Rev. Stephen Keenan Pg. 174

[BipolarBob]

Historically, sabbatariansim is a relatively modern restorationist movement

The Hebrews will be shocked to hear this. Who knew Jesus was behind in the times? He should have cleared this up when Sabbath breaking was an offense.

[af_vet_1981]

Orthodox Jews have been keeping Circumcision and Shabbat (and all the Mitzvot they can) since the Law was given through Moses. Judaism too had to adapt to historical realities and the rabbis have rulings about what one must do to keep the particular commandments.

[af_vet_1981]

The scriptural authority is n the Gospels and Book of Acts. The Messiah gave the power to bind and loose to the Apostle Peter, and by extension the other Apostles (and by implication their successors). The one holy catholic and apostolic Church has enjoyed the Holy Spirit in this world (for the Messiah sent the Comforter to His church).

The Apostle to the Gentiles wrote about the Gentiles who desire to come under the Law of Moses independent of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. It is fairly straight forward for Gentiles.

[BipolarBob]

. It is fairly straight forward for Gentiles.

I guess so. They can graft in to the Chosen People and adhere to Gods Law or not. That's pretty straight forward.

Rev. 22:14,15 "14 Blessed are they that do his Commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates into the City.
15 For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

[af_vet_1981]

Do you mean by that post that among the Gentiles only those who keep the Jewish Sabbath and obey all the Laws of Moses will enter the kingdom of heaven ?

[BipolarBob]

Just sourcing Scripture about Commandment keeping. I'm trying to tie it all together. Apparently there are (1) The Hebrews (now Jews) who kept the Sabbath and the One Holy True Catholic Church ((extra ecclesiam nulla salus which changed the Sabbath. And I'm trying to see where I fit in. Perhaps there are different sections to Heaven? One for this group and another for another group. Perhaps they will worship on different days? Are there different requirements for membership to Heaven for each group? I thought God was no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34).

[BipolarBob]

The scriptural authority is n the Gospels and Book of Acts. The Messiah gave the power to bind and loose to the Apostle Peter,

That is where the One True Catholic Church got their authority but what of the Protestants? Where is their authority?

Q. Have you any other proofs that they (Protestants) are not guided by the Scriptures?
Keenan pg 101 They should, if the Scripture were their only rule, wash the feet of one another, according to the command of Christ, in the 13th chap. of St. John;—they should keep, not the Sunday, but the Saturday, according to the commandment, "Remember thou keep holy the SABBATH-day;" for this commandment has not, in Scripture, been changed or abrogated;

Prots are paying homage to the authority of Rome when they worship on Sunday according to this Catechism.

[af_vet_1981]

The LORD Jesus Christ did not leave the world a Bible when He ascended into heaven. He left the church He built on Cephas, the Apostle to the Circumcision, the other apostles and prophets, with the Messiah Himself as the chief cornerstone. He sent the Holy Spirit to His church. The Holy Spirit equips the one holy catholic and apostolic Church to go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things He has commanded. He promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, and that He will be always with His church unto the end of the world.

He left one holy catholic and apostolic Church. He sent the Holy Spirit. He gave commandments. He made promises. The Jewish Christians recorded this in new scriptures. The Church compared these scriptures with other scriptures, old and new, weighing them, evaluating them, and compiled a Christian Bible.

God is no respecter of persons. He will render to every man according to his deeds.

[editor-surveyor]

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>> “The LORD Jesus Christ did not leave the world a Bible when He ascended into heaven.” <<

Wrong! he Left the Tanakh, the scriptures that he and his disciples preached and lived by.

>> “He left the church He built on Cephas...” <<

Total balderdash!

There is no “Church,” there is only the ancient Kehillah, his assembly of believers, the Body of Yeshua.

“The Church” is a totally man made religion that gathers on the day of the Sungod, and worships creation.
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