Posted on 05/22/2017 7:51:58 AM PDT by Salvation
The first readings at daily Mass this week recount the Council of Jerusalem, which scholars generally date to around 50 A.D. It was a pivotal moment in the history of the Church, because it would set forth an identity for Her that was independent of the culture of Judaism per se and would open wide the door of inculturation to the Gentiles. This surely had a significant effect on evangelization in the early Church.
Catholic ecclesiology is evident in this first council in that we have a very Catholic model of how a matter of significant pastoral practice and doctrine is properly dealt with. What we see here is the same model that the Catholic Church has continued to use right up to the present day. In this and all subsequent ecumenical councils, there is a gathering of the bishops, presided over by the Pope, that considers and may even debate a matter. In the event that consensus cannot be reached, the Pope resolves the debate. Once a decision is reached, it is considered binding and a letter is issued to the whole Church.
All of these elements are seen in this first council of the Church in Jerusalem, although in seminal form. Let’s consider this council, beginning with some background.
Peter arises to settle the matter because, it would seem, the Apostles themselves were divided. Had not Peter received this charge from the Lord? The Lord had prophesied, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded to sift you all like wheat but I have prayed for you Peter, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers (Luke 22:31-32). Peter now fulfills this text, as he will again in the future and as will every Pope after him. Peter clearly dismisses any notion that the Gentiles should be made to take up the whole burden of Jewish customs. Paul and Barnabas rise to support this. Then James (who it seems may have felt otherwise) rises to assent to the decision and asks that a letter be sent forth to all the Churches explaining the decision. He also asks for and obtains a few concessions.
So there it is, the first council of the Church. That council, like all the Church-wide councils that would follow, was a gathering of the bishops in the presence of Peter, who worked to unite them. At a council a decision is made and a decree binding on the whole Church is sent out—very Catholic, actually. We have kept this biblical model ever since that first council. Our Protestant brethren have departed from it because they have no pope to settle things when there is disagreement. They have split into tens of thousands of denominations and factions. When no one is pope, everyone is pope.
A final thought: Notice how the decree to the Churches is worded: It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us (Acts 15:28). In the end, we trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church in matters of faith and morals. We trust that decrees and doctrines that issue forth from councils of the bishops with the Pope are inspired by and authored by the Holy Spirit Himself. There it is right in Scripture, the affirmation that when the Church speaks solemnly in this way, it is not just the bishops and the Pope speaking as men, it is the Holy Spirit speaking with them.
The Church—Catholic from the start!
When do you expect your 'striving' through fidelity to CATHOLIC INSTITUTIONAL Sacraments will net you eternal life?
It never will bro. Not now, not ever. There is altogether too much false doctrine being pushed all over the world.
You know, the Great White Throne is coming soon enough. Some will be defendants, some will be witnesses for the prosecution, like the Queen of Sheba and the men of Nineveh. I plan to sit between the Queen and the men of Nineveh, and when they rise in judgement over this generation, and condemn it, I plan to rise with them. I think you do too. I agree, the time is short. Many are called, most are not chosen. I am sure you are thrilled to be among the chosen. The rest? Well, that's on them. They can't say they were never told. They were. 🔥
Say hello to your lovely bride ... and I’ll see you in the clouds!
I will bro. She is rather good looking isn't she? 😀 I know how to pick them. By the way, my lovely bride is also an ex Catholic, like me. Her mom and dad, who are still Catholics, give her some good natured ribbing about it, but there is 0% chance she will swim the Tiber. There are quite a few other ex Catholics here too, so we are making progress, getting them out of the RCC. I even know some ex Muslims. I find ex Muslims to be very Godly men.
Yes, see you in the clouds bro. We will all have a grand reunion. Those who don't qualify for the rapture? Well, that's on them. They need to start trying to figure out how they will last for eternity in the 🔥
It would seem that way, would it not?
I like to use Rome's claim of this to SHOW how screwed up the church was in the Apostolic Era; thereby blowing the claim of Catholic accurate teachings and doctrine right out of the water.
You guys WANT Catholicism in the Apostolic Era then you gotta claim the baggage that is revolving around in the terminal basement!
Thanks for stating that they are NOT found in Scripture.
The jury is still out on this one;
but while we are waiting; let’s have fun!
yata taya
and boobly-botta
It’s the end and I’ve not yet begun!
And ripped right out of context by YOU!
(If they will not listen to the Church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.)
15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
“to the Council of Nicaea,”
Couldn’t have been then because there was absolutely no mention of a pope or infallible bishop of rome at the council.
What about bad popes? Out of 266 popes since Peter, there have been a few stinkers: 8 or 9, by my informal count
“They’re very much like the original Twelve Apostles: one out-and-out traitor, one triple-denier, nine abandoning their Captain and headed for the tall grass at the moment of crisis, -— and one at the foot of the Cross.”
So there you have it fellow RC’s Mrs. Don-o admits that that RCC and her popes are very fallible and has been since Peter.
Welcome to being Protestant were we admit that we are all fallible and need the GRACE of God through Jesus Christ.
“How to account for the bad ones? Tares among the wheat. We were told from the start to expect this. It may sadden, but should not surprise us.”
Easy, quit demanding that your church and pope are infallible.
Quit telling me that I must accept the teachings of a fallible church and pope or be accursed.
Quit telling me that the whole world must submit to the authority of the fallible roman church.
“abandoning their Captain”
Actually Chief of Staff would be more appropriate as the Chief takes care of the day to day business and only reports to the commander God.
Isn't that about normal for Catholics? Twisting scripture is about the only way to make it agree with their interpretation of doctrine.
2nd Peter 3:16, their first pope says, As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
So, all I can say is, it's not a good idea to wrest scripture. It might lead to their destruction. We don't know anyone who does that, do we? 😀
In your earlier post you admitted that popes and the RCC is fallible, so that must mean that all seven Churches were Protestant and after the Roman empire couldn’t exterminate us it tried to join us by starting the RCC. The RCC tried to exterminate us for the next 1,000 years also, but still failed as us Protestants are still here preaching the Grace and Cross of Jesus Christ.
“I hardly think churches in 1st century Anatolia would have seen themselves as being under the jurisdiction of the See of Rome) nor a Protestant Church.”
Interesting, but they did apparently did feel under the authority of Paul a Jew preaching to Gentiles who was not under any manly authority, but under the command of Jesus Christ Himself. 1 Cor 16:1, 1 Corinthians 14:34,
Another interesting point is one of the Churches Paul preached at was one of the seven Churches of Revelation, Ephesus. With that being said it must have been Protestant since it wasn’t Peter’s teaching right. The Ephesians did indeed fall under the jurisdiction of Jesus Christ, but there was no mention of the RCC or the authority of the infallibility claim of the “church”.
Let’s see if I have this RCC infallibility thing right...
a bunch of fallible guys get together and proclaim one of themselves infallible.
You know that sounds just like a bunch of demons getting together and proclaiming their leader Satan perfect.
Oh wait the book of Revelation mentions that exactly.
Revelation 13:11
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Q: Didn’t the Roman church split into two different branches like two horns of power.
A: Yes it did
Q: Isn’t Jesus called the Lamb of God, Head of the Church
A: Yes He is
Q: Roman pope vicar of Christ
A: he claims this and Revelation says “like a lamb” not a lamb, but like it exactly what the pope claims to be
Q: Roman pope claims infallibility
A: Yes, but only Christ was perfect all others have sinned.
Q: That makes the pope appear like Satan as he wants to be like GOD
A: Exactly right anyone who claims to be perfect with the exception of God, Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit is and Antichrist.
Q: Do people bow to the pope and does he stop them
A: Yes they do and he doesn’t stop them he even puts his hand our so they may kiss his hand/ring
Q: When people bowed to Angels and Apostles did they allow it
A: Absolutely not every time they said get up we are only servants of the most High God worship Him and Him alone.
Luke 4:7
If thou therefore wilt adore before me, all shall be thine.
“The way you phrase your question is anachronistic.”
Quit avoiding the question and admit the truth.
All you RC’s claim Peter was the first pope. If that was the case the whole world was and is under his the popes subjection from then until the return of Christ, ccc 882.
“There was one term for the “church as a whole” (cata holos,) and that we can properly call the Catholic Church.”
Yes Catholic, but NOT the Roman church.
Say it, go ahead and admit it your religion is called the church of rome or roman catholic not the Universal Church as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures.
It’s call a counterfeit which is really close, but not the real deal. You have been duped please read your Bible and repent of your idol worship and fall straight into the Glorious Grace of Jesus Christ.
All your guilt and burdens will be lifted and you will finally have security in your eternal destination of Heaven. Finally you can know that Heaven is your next stop not Hell or purgatory or any other false dreamed up place, but Heaven with Jesus.
The verse about listening to the church in no way establishes it as an ultimate hierarchal system that Rome has become.
That verse is about settling disputes among brothers and the procedure for it.
It does NOT name the Roman Catholic church, or any church for that matter to be the ultimate authority over every believer who must be in subjection to its religious system.
How to account for the bad ones? Tares among the wheat. We were told from the start to expect this. It may sadden, but should not surprise us.
A *few* stinkers?
You have pretty generous standards for acceptable behavior then.
But God doesn't.
Here are HIS standards, which many of your popes and clergy do NOT meet, nor has the church a history of exercising its obligation to enforce those standards.
QUALIFICATIONS FOR DEACION AND ELDER
1 Corinthians 5:1-13 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
That precludes taking communion with someone like that.
2 John 1:4-11 I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
Titus 1:5-16 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
1 Timothy 3:1-13 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? Hemust not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 5:19-24 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
For a church which claims it's the ONT TRUE CHURCH established by Jesus Himself and it protected from error in the matter of faith and morals, it sure has let an awful lot of reprehensible behavior slip through the cracks.
They have no right to demand that people submit to it when they can't even keep their own house in order. They have higher standards for behavior and demand more out of its laity than it does out of its clergy.
A priest who is molesting boys is allowed to serve communion while in a state of sin if his intent is pure, but the person who is remarried after a divorce is not allowed to receive communion because of being in a state of sin even if their intent is pure.
What rank hypocrisy! Because that same priest who serves communion himself also partakes during the mass.
Bump
Protestants are “predictable”? Like that’s a bad thing? It just confirms that they are steadfast in the faith. That is the result of them basing their belief on God’s Word alone. It must be difficult to try to keep up with the dictates of MERE MEN each time a new guy with a weird hat shows up in Italy.
Catholics on FR are forever whining about the current pope. He’s just a guy. Focus on God as the Final Authority, forget the middle man — a human — and things will make more sense.
Some of your conclusions need reconsideration. God's standards are standards which neither the laity nor the clergy of any denomination can fully meet, and which they all often traduce scandalously; and the churches with the longest history down the millennia (e.g. Catholic and Orthodox) have, inevitably, the longest records of falling short of the Glory of God; and this goes all the way back to our near-total abandonment of Our Lord at Calvary.
As for the obligation to enforce godly standards: I completely agree with you. I have in mind, for instance, that Pope Benedict XVI constantly reiterated the perennial moral doctrines and personally removed 400 priests from the active priesthood and was almost universally criticized for it as being pharisaical, judgmental, an unbending legalist, etc. (when people took notice of it at all).
Play your other cards and emphasize mercy and patient accompaniment, and you're slammed for that, too.
It's very hard to "do" at one go, both the deepest loving-kindness and the strictest righteousness. I long to see the true Messianic standard: 'Mercy and Truth are met together, Righteousness and Peace have kissed.' (Psalm 85:10 --- thrilling and challenging to me.) I would like a lot more "discipline" from the Bishop of Rome all the way down to the newest deacon. If you'd like the same: ---seriously --- pray for them.
`
Did I write that? I certainly did not, nor did I imply it, nor did I think it.
I do wish you're quit imputing to me what I did not say. It unfairly puts me int he position of having to refute things I never said to begin with.
We'd both learn a lot more, I think, and appreciate each other better,if we would ASK the other person what they believe, rather than TELL them what they believe.
The only thing you can really confidently TELL, is what YOU believe. It would be more pro
"It would be more productive and conducive to mutual appreciation if we would ASK what the other person believes, and focus our TELLING on what WE believe."
You are exposed, once again. Which face will we get in response this time?
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