Posted on 11/28/2016 8:33:34 PM PST by ebb tide
"Proselytism among Christians, therefore, in itself, is a grave sin,” said Pope Francis.
The journalist then asked, “Why?”
“Because it contradicts the very dynamic of how to become and to remain Christian,” he said. “The Church is not a soccer team that goes around seeking fans.”
It would be hard to conceive of a more superficial, more puerile, remark on relations with other Christian denominations. How much lower can the papacy sink - in terms of both cheap jibes that demean and dishonor the supreme office of Christ's Vicar on earth (lambasting an opposing position with a crude straw-man caricature that would discredit a junior high schooler) and outright heterodoxy?
The American left is currently urging the Electoral College to hand the White House to Hillary on the grounds that Trump is "manifestly unfit to be President". Dare we hope that the scarlet-clad Eminences of the Church's own Electoral College will soon declare Francis "manifestly unfit to be Pope"?
I mean . . . Trying to help non-Catholic Christians, by reasoned argument and apologetics, to recognize and embrace the fullness of revealed truth - and for Francis, that certainly qualifies as "proselytism" - is now to be condemned as sin? And indeed, grave sin? Even though Vatican Council II (to which the Holy Father professes his full adherence) clearly restates that all have a moral duty to seek, embrace and hold fast to this truth of the Catholic Church (cf. Dignitatis Humanae, #1)? Even though the Council (Lumen Gentium, #14) and the Catechism (#846) reaffirm the dogma "Outside the Church there is no salvation", explaining it to mean that those who recognize the Catholic Church as embodying the true religion, yet refuse to enter or remain in her, cannot be saved?
I myself am a convert from Presbyterianism. Prompted by the aforesaid conciliar teaching, I became a Catholic in order to save my soul. The Catholic faith I have professed now for 42 years is the most precious gift I have received. And now the head of Christ's Catholic Church on earth, no less, is telling me that those Catholics who by personal conversation and written argument helped persuade me to abandon my Protestant heresies and embrace the fullness of revealed truth were thereby committing grave sin? And he's justifying this excoriation of convert-seeking with a vapid "explanation" that explains nothing ("Because it contradicts the very dynamic of how to become and to remain Christian”)?
How many previous Successors of Peter must be rolling in their graves at such comments! This, coming from a pope, is . . . outrageous. Mind-boggling. Unspeakable. Incredible. The stuff of nightmare. It is calling good evil, and by implication, evil good. Sorry, I can't find adequate words here, so will simply give up seeking them and sign off.
If some Protestant denominations viewed Catholics the way you say Catholics should view Protestants, they wouldn't even exist. The Assemblies of God in some places is as much as 90% ex-Catholics. I suppose Pope Francis is fine with that. He certainly has few or no kind words to say about actual Catholics trying to remain faithful.
What you're saying amounts to demanding that Catholics unilaterally disarm, and let Protestants and others poach as many Catholics as they can.
We have real disagreements, and it's dishonest to pretend that they don't matter.
I can't be subject to the both of them.
Under which pope did you decide to apostatize?
1 John 2:
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Apostasy defined by the Apostle John is denying the Father and the Son. I do believe you owe boatbums a huge apology.
"Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff" (Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronuntiamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis). (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15126a.htm)
It sounds like an ex cathedra pronouncement. Has it ever been revoked?
I agree. I think we should rejoice over every soul that comes to repentance and saving faith and who follows Jesus Christ.
Which Pope are you subject to? Pope St Pius X is dead.
Not at all. I'm saying the evangelizing efforts exerted by any Christian group would be better concentrated on the unsaved, unbelievers rather than on those who already profess Jesus Christ. There's no "unilateral" disarmament for either. Nobody "poached" me from Catholicism. I was seeking to know the truth - not just what I had been force fed - and the Lord quite miraculously revealed it to me through His word. A light in my soul went on and I knew the gospel was NOT what I had been taught. I left of my own free will with no animosity towards my previous religion. I just knew I didn't belong there anymore. For some people, maybe it's the other way. They want what they think Catholicism offers them. I don't try to poach anyone away but leave that up to the Holy Spirit.
I also don't pretend we don't have real disagreements and I am more than happy to discuss them and why I believe what I do. But it is ALWAYS going to be the Lord who changes hearts.
Thanks, but I won’t hold my breath. ;o)
Thank you. I’m Anglican, and I have many Roman and Presbyterian friends and family, and we are able to discuss our commonalities and differences (proselytize, if you will) without terrible rancor or fisticuffs. I believe what I believe very firmly, but am able to understand that others do, too.
The antichrist Pope continues being anti Christ.
Pope Francis - the Barack Obama of Catholicism.
He sadly is birthed out of liberation theology. My question is given this obvious bent and upbringing, why did they vote him in as pope. That is the process (to me) that is off the rails. And so we are stuck with him.
Look for Pope Francis to step down by the end of next year.
Any church, community of believers or other ecclesial entity must believe that it possesses the truth and the whole truth, mustn't it? If it doesn't, it has no business hanging out a shingle and inviting people in, does it? "We're not really sure......" is not a valid religious model although the Unitarians might disagree.
The Catholic Church certainly believes that it possesses the uncorrupted Gospel truth and I presume that you and your group of believers do likewise. Which leads to my question:
If we believe we possess the entire truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, wouldn't we want to share that truth with others? That seems to make perfect sense to me. Call it "proselytism" if you want, with all the negative connatations which have been attached to that word but to me, it's simply sharing the truth. What does not make sense to me, is believing that one possesses the truth and not wanting to share it.
Ergo, Francis' words make no sense. The only way they do make sense is if he a) does not believe that the Catholic Church possesses the whole truth and/or b) does not believe that truth ultimately matters. If the former, he's a heretic, if the latter, he's a syncretist.
Well, bless your heart.
Moses is dead; but I still obey the Ten Commandments.
How about you?
“He was beheaded for being loud.”
Well, some of us do value our peace and quiet...
The Troubles weren’t so much about protestant vs Catholic as loyalty to England versus loyalty to Ireland. It just happened to break down along religious lines because those who made themselves loyal to the English crown also took the religion of the Crown while those native to Ireland and resisting the crown held on to the Catholic religion as part of that resistance. So false analogy on your part.
Even though the Council (Lumen Gentium, #14) and the Catechism (#846) reaffirm the dogma "Outside the Church there is no salvation", explaining it to mean that those who recognize the Catholic Church as embodying the true religion, yet refuse to enter or remain in her, cannot be saved?
The part above after 'explaining it to mean' seems to be a departure from earlier Catholic explanation of this issue. I agree with you, I don't care specifically what the Catholics say, but the current vicar attempts to destroy Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. As to the latter, real Catholics have a problem, as to the former all Christians do (even if to real Catholics we aren't Christians). The Savior knows His own, God is faithful.
Really? Do you also thank God you aren't like other men?
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