Posted on 07/23/2016 9:19:23 AM PDT by Salvation
Eucharist in the creed?
Msgr. Charles Pope
Question: The true presence of Christ in the Eucharist is central to our Catholic faith, and many converts say it was essential to their conversion. If this is so, why is the true presence not mentioned at all in the Nicene or Apostles Creeds? Should it not be added at the end where we state things like our belief in the Communion of Saints, the resurrection of the body and so forth? — Jerry Roventini, via email
Answer: There are many things that are not mentioned in the Nicene Creed. There is no mention of the Ten Commandments or grace; neither are we told what books belong to the New Testament or that we should care for the poor, etc. The creed is not a catechism; it is a statement of certain key doctrines that were disputed at the time of its composition in the fourth century.
The creed was composed in response to debates about the divinity of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. While there are a few concluding statements related to ecclesiology and eschatology, the Nicene Creed remains preeminently a statement of faith in the one God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The belief in the true presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist was not widely disputed at the time. And to the degree it was, the need to definitively teach on the divinity of Christ was an important foundation in order to establish his true presence in the Eucharist.
In the Sacred Liturgy, many signs and words indicate the Real Presence. The words of the consecration, which are Jesus’ own words, say, “This is my body … my blood.” The priest later says, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” There are also signs of the Real Presence in our reverence of kneeling and genuflecting. And, as Communion is distributed, there is the simple creedal declaration and response: “The body of Christ. Amen.” Therefore, in the wider liturgy of the Mass and devotions such as adoration, the Church proclaims her belief in the True Presence.
While it would not intrinsically hurt to add to the Nicene Creed, one might wonder where it would stop. Further, since the creed is shared by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, adding to the ancient creed might harm attempts at unity.
Pope Paul VI wrote a longer “Credo of the People of God” which does speak to the Eucharistic presence, but it is too long to recite at Mass.
A better question, which you have not dealt with FRiend, is why isn’t it taught, commanded, examples put forth, etc. in the Inspired Words of God.
Oh, but it is taught, commanded, examples put forth, etc, in the Inspired Words of God. Eprhaim of the Syrian Orthodox Church explains it in one of his homilies:
“Our Lord Jesus took in His hands what in the beginning was only bread; and He blessed it, and signed it, and made it holy in the name of the Father and in the name of the Spirit; and He broke it and in His gracious kindness He distributed it to all His disciples one by one. He called the bread His living Body, and did Himself fill it with Himself and the Spirit.,
And extending His hand, He gave them the Bread which His right hand had made holy: ‘Take, all of you eat of this; which My word has made holy. Do not now regard as bread that which I have given you; but take, eat this Bread, and do not scatter the crumbs; for what I have called My Body, that it is indeed. One particle from its crumbs is able to sanctify thousands and thousands, and is sufficient to afford life to those who eat of it. Take, eat, entertaining no doubt of faith, because this is My Body, and whoever eats it in belief eats in it Fire and Spirit. But if any doubter eat of it, for him it will be only bread. And whoever eats in belief the Bread made holy in My name, if he be pure, he will be preserved in his purity; and if he be a sinner, he will be forgiven.’ But if anyone despise it or reject it or treat it with ignominy, it may be taken as certainty that he treats with ignominy the Son, who called it and actually made it to be His Body.”,
-”Homilies” 4,4 ca.. 350 A.D.,
“After the disciples had eaten the new and holy Bread, and when they understood by faith that they had eaten of Christ’s body, Christ went on to explain and to give them the whole Sacrament. He took and mixed a cup of wine. The He blessed it, and signed it, and made it holy, declaring that it was His own Blood, which was about to be poured out….Christ commanded them to drink, and He explained to them that the cup which they were drinking was His own Blood: ‘This is truly My Blood, which is shed for all of you. Take, all of you, drink of this, because it is a new covenant in My Blood, As you have seen Me do, do you also in My memory. Whenever you are gathered together in My name in Churches everywhere, do what I have done, in memory of Me. Eat My Body, and drink My Blood, a covenant new and old.”,
-”Homilies” 4,6 ca. 350 A.D.
This is just one of many examples showing what the various Christian communities taught about the Word of God throughout the ages.
As you mentioned, though, you are free to examine the Word of God in your own way.
May the Peace of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, be with you
Rich
Not in Scripture. Anywhere.
‘Take, all of you eat of this; which My word has made holy. Do not now regard as bread that which I have given you; but take, eat this Bread, and do not scatter the crumbs; for what I have called My Body, that it is indeed. One particle from its crumbs is able to sanctify thousands and thousands, and is sufficient to afford life to those who eat of it. Take, eat, entertaining no doubt of faith, because this is My Body, and whoever eats it in belief eats in it Fire and Spirit. But if any doubter eat of it, for him it will be only bread. And whoever eats in belief the Bread made holy in My name, if he be pure, he will be preserved in his purity; and if he be a sinner, he will be forgiven.’ But if anyone despise it or reject it or treat it with ignominy, it may be taken as certainty that he treats with ignominy the Son, who called it and actually made it to be His Body.”,
Not found anywhere in Scripture. I can only guess you are unfamiliar with Scripture, since you posted this falsehood. Even worse, he made this up in 350AD - yes, +300 years after Christ.
“After the disciples had eaten the new and holy Bread, and when they understood by faith that they had eaten of Christ’s body, Christ went on to explain and to give them the whole Sacrament. He took and mixed a cup of wine. The He blessed it, and signed it, and made it holy, declaring that it was His own Blood, which was about to be poured out….Christ commanded them to drink, and He explained to them that the cup which they were drinking was His own Blood: ‘This is truly My Blood, which is shed for all of you. Take, all of you, drink of this, because it is a new covenant in My Blood, As you have seen Me do, do you also in My memory. Whenever you are gathered together in My name in Churches everywhere, do what I have done, in memory of Me. Eat My Body, and drink My Blood, a covenant new and old.”,
Again, never appears anywhere in Scripture. Made up out of whole cloth, +300 years after Christ.As you mentioned, though, you are free to examine the Word of God in your own way.
You haven't posted the Word of God - nor shown evidence you examined it.You posted some things a guy made up 3 centuries after Christ, while ignoring Scripture.
Why?? What phobia of truth would lead a person who claims the name of Christ, to ignore God's Word and substitute things made up centuries later??
Guys/Gal,
Do you remember back when you didn’t know Christ and believed whatever the Catholic Church told you?
Do you remember when you came to know Christ and His Word opened up to your heart?
I was just remembering that moment in my own life, based on the conversation above with someone unfamiliar with the Scriptures.
“Thanks be to God, for His Indescribable Gift!”
While Ephraim used flowery language, the substance of what he wrote is in Scripture:
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. Matthew 26:26
Whatever else you may want to say about the Last Supper discourse, there is no denying that in this verse, Jesus took bread, blessed it, and said that it was His body.
Some aver that He was merely being symbolic; others say that He was instructing that, in some mysterious way beyond our understanding, He literally transforms bread into His body.
You choose to believe what you want, I believe that there is no limit to what God can do. If He says that He can transform bread into His body, I believe Him.
Peace,
Rich
Ah, so we have arrived. I wondered how long it would take you to get to saying something like, "God can do whatever He wants to do."
I point out that what your earlier quote said went very, very far beyond what God Himself inspired in Scripture.
Now you have come back to the Words of Christ and stopped at one phrase.
Christ also said He was a door. If He wanted to turn Himself into a door, I guess by this argument, you will believe, right? He also said, I am the true vine. Guess you will believe He is really a vine, right?
There is an entire collection of inspired writings you must study to understand what was said and how the Apostles understood it. They were in the room, as you point out. Yet there is no evidence in Scripture that they ever had priests, ever turned bread and wine into body and blood. Never commanded. No example of this being replicated or believed.
I am always a bit astounded when someone turns their nose up at studying God's Word and happily substitutes the words of mortals. But then, that used to be me too!
Oh amen!
John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
John 8:31-32 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free"
The hour is so dark that the light of TRUTH is not seen by those whose pride in their ‘fidelity’ to their institution is all they know. You cannot reason such an one to open their spirit to GOD. They are lost to magic thinking: ‘god can do anything, so he does the magic our institution declares to us.’ Such a mind cannot discern truth.
Yet as the darkness grows the light stands out the brighter to those who see it.
Isaiah 9:2 "The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined"
Yes, of course Jesus risen body is wholly intact and is in Heaven...do you think that God does not have the ability to fulfill Christ's promise that His universal church would be inerrant an last until the end of time.
That universal church, the Catholic church, has taught, from the beginning, that transubstantiation was and is a fact. Christ started it and commanded His followers to DO THIS in His memory....we do THIS at every Mass, in every Catholic and Orthodox church, in every country in the world, every hour of every day.......what is your objection???
**54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.…**
Those are Jesus Christ’s words (yes, John wrote them down for all to read).
If you take them literally, then once is enough.
I take them spiritually:
John 4:10 The Lord offers living water.
John 4:32 The Lord says he has meat that his disciples knew not of (they knew after being filled with the Holy Ghost).
John 5:26 The Son has life in himself,....given to him by the Father.
John 6:63 After the confusion exhibited by those that heard the Lord speak of eating his flesh and blood, He tells them “it is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing.
Every atom of the flesh and flood of Christ has the Spirit in it, hence the transfiguration before Peter and John. When one is filled with the Spirit, one has the same Spirit that was in Christ.
The conversion of many, as pointed out in Acts, shows many instances of people believing and being baptized. There was a couple of instances of ‘breaking bread’, but even the Lord broke bread after his resurrection in a simple matter of eating with his disciples.
Paul wrote epistles to the:
Romans
Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
Thessalonians
Hebrews (many believe that it is from Paul)
And to:
Timothy
Titus
Yet he only reminded the Corinthians on the proper use of the Lord’s supper.
I think that those that believe that the Lord’s supper is transformed into literal flesh and blood, have crossed over into idolatry.
After all, as he handed the wine (that he referred to as his blood) to his disciples, he said he would no more drink of the fruit of the vine until he would drink it anew with them in heaven.
Do you not believe what the angel Gabriel told Mary, that with God all things shall be possible? I do. I also believe what Jesus tells us. And Jesus did tell us that the bread He took and blessed was His body.
If you want to believe that He was being symbolic, by all means, go ahead. I believe He means it when He says the bread that is given us to eat is His body.
“believe He means it when He says the bread that is given us to eat is His body.”
Then why didn’t the Apostles believe that? They were actually in the room when Christ said those words, yet there is no evidence of any Apostle carrying it out as if the elements could change.
How is it that you came to a different belief and practice than the Apostles?
Why do you choose to believe what they never did in practice.
The body JESUS now occupies, IN HEAVEN does not have blood distributing The LIFE throughout the tissues. That exposes your Catholic Mass as a farcical blasphemy. But that us beyond your darkness to comprehend.
JESUS told His disciples that wherever two or more are gathered in His name -that would be two or more faithers in Him by HIS Spirit not their strivings for salvation- there is He in the midst of them.
THAT is a mountain of TRUTH too high for the carnal mind inculcated in you. Catholics have literally been taught that the bloodless Body Jesus now has In Heaven is commanded to produce blood for Catholics to consume at Catholic Mass, by a priesthood that is not prescribed in The Word of God.
So long as the carnal is the focus of Catholic ritual, the Spiritual will not be amongst you ...
Romans 8:5-7 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Yes, I sure do.
It was like night and day.
I wondered how I could have missed so much of what I knew I had heard before cause now it made so much sense to me.
And Jesus was also recorded as saying that He was drinking the fruit of the vine.
Why don’t Catholics then believe that it was simply wine REPRESENTING His blood.
Especially in light of the fact that drinking blood would have violated the Law that Jesus came to fulfill, not abolish, and would have caused Him and His disciples to sin, thus making Him a sinner, not capable of being the spotless lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?
But the *God can do anything* is a false premise. God CANNOT do *anything*.
He cannot lie, He cannot change, He cannot deny Himself.
And yet Jesus also says that the SPIRIT gives life, the FLESH is no help at all.
Eating the flesh and blood of Jesus, in violation of God's commands throughout Scripture, does not impart spiritual life, much less physical life.
The SPIRIT gives that spiritual life. A person is born from above, born again in the SPIRIT.
Those who worship God worship Him in SPIRIT and truth.
It seems that Catholics are so physical world oriented that they do not have any concept of the spiritual realm that we inhabit and that exists all around us.
There is spiritual reality operating all around us that we cannot sense with our senses, and we live and move through that as well. The New birth is a SPIRITUAL experience/happening that is NOT caused by physical actions.
Grace! Glorious grace! Placemarker.
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