Posted on 06/27/2016 7:09:10 PM PDT by ebb tide
Kleinjung: Too much beer … Holy Father, I wanted to ask you a question. Today you spoke of the gifts of the shared Churches, of the gifts shared by the Churches together. Seeing that you will go in I believe four months to Lund for the commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the reformation, I think perhaps this is also the right moment for us not only to remember the wounds on both sides but also to recognize the gifts of the reformation. Perhaps also – this is a heretical question – perhaps to annul or withdraw the excommunication of Martin Luther or of some sort of rehabilitation. Thank you.
Pope Francis: I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power…and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying, and because he did this. And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err. He made a medicine for the Church, but then this medicine consolidated into a state of things, into a state of a discipline, into a way of believing, into a way of doing, into a liturgical way and he wasn’t alone; there was Zwingli, there was Calvin, each one of them different, and behind them were who? Principals! We must put ourselves in the story of that time. It’s a story that’s not easy to understand, not easy. Then things went forward, and today the dialogue is very good. That document of justification I think is one of the richest ecumenical documents in the world, one in most agreement. But there are divisions, and these also depend on the Churches. In Buenos Aires there were two Lutheran churches, and one thought in one way and the other…even in the same Lutheran church there was no unity; but they respected each other, they loved each other, and the difference is perhaps what hurt all of us so badly and today we seek to take up the path of encountering each other after 500 years. I think that we have to pray together, pray. Prayer is important for this. Second, to work together for the poor, for the persecuted, for many people, for refugees, for the many who suffer; to work together and pray together and the theologians who study together try…but this is a long path, very long. One time jokingly I said: I know when full unity will happen. – “when?” – “the day after the Son of Man comes,” because we don’t know…the Holy Spirit will give the grace, but in the meantime, praying, loving each other and working together. Above all for the poor, for the people who suffer and for peace and many things…against the exploitation of people and many things in which they are jointly working together.
We don’t even need to get into the theology. All you need to know is that Luther says X about Justification, and the Catholic Church says Y. If you believe Luther’s position, you are Lutheran, not Catholic. This is not some arcane doctrine; it’s the central tenant of the Lutheran confession.
The Catholic teaching on Justification is HERE. A bunch of stuff Luther said is HERE.
The pope is Lutheran.
The pope cannot be Lutheran.
Red hats, now is the proper time.
Not surprising, but interesting...
Given that the concept of "Divine Law" is a revelation (protestant term) as defined by Catholics, revelation should be based on and inspired by Holy Scripture...
As far as I can tell the sole requirement to be leader in a body of christian believers is to be a Christian first...not a Roman Catholic... (Not completely sure Pope Frankie can pass that test) ..
There is nothing in Scripture that makes non Catholic believers apostate, heretics and schismatics...
That's strictly is man's tradition... not revelation, thus not Divine Law...
Well, for starters he isn't a believer in Christ...
True. Obviously I was trying to make a point. Non-Catholics still aren’t....Catholic. Francis isn’t supposed to be leading the Lutheran churches.
I’m not willing to get into a Protestant vs Catholic “debate”. If someone else wishes to get into it with you, they can. I don’t.
But a Socialist can be.
Good...I don't want to either..
Nobody will ever convince me that the Roman Catholic Church is the only one true Church and as I have been told before, (not by you) that I am a heretic and hellbound for not believing such...
On the other hand, who I am to say what or what not the the Roman Catholic Church is...
As far as I am concerned, if you believe and are called by HIS name we are brothers in Christ..
End of story...It's that simple...
So, “Is the Pope Lutheran” is finally answered!
Thank GOD!
Rome might produce some REAL weirdos otherwise!!
Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy
Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy
Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]
Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.
Given Catholics didn’t manage to have any 'scripture' about popes to place into the Book it compiled; why would this be surprising to you?
Knowing this is what non-Catholics believe is why I said that. As I said up-thread, not interested in going down the “debate” path. That horse has been beaten to death on FR a long time ago.
Just a reminder: bad pope does not = heretic pope
Just a reminder: bad Pastor does = a heretic Pastor in a LOT of FR Catholic eyes.
Wait!
I just saw him twitch!!
Not sure I understand. To me, “heretic whatever” is a whole other animal than just “bad”.
lol....for me, that horse is a goner.
We pray that our separated brethren will someday return to the fold (they will)and once again, as it was for 1,600 years, there will be a One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church composed of ALL Christians.....worked good for 1,600 years, can work good for another ?????????zillion years.
Don't you even read your OWN Book???
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,
Dang!
Don't you READ your own BOOK?
I suppose you think your Catholic churches mentioned by the angel to John were working good? [Revelation chapters 1-3]
Amazing the lack of knowledge you exhibit.
Tell ya what.
When you separated CATHOLICS can finally get YOUR act together; come see us poor, deluded Prots and work your magic on us.
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