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Pope Francis: ‘Rigid… this or nothing’ Catholics are ‘heretical’ and ‘not Catholic’
Life Site News ^ | June 9, 2016 | John-Westen

Posted on 06/09/2016 3:59:37 PM PDT by ebb tide

The stunning introduction to today’s official Vatican Radio report on Pope Francis’ morning homily reads: “Pope Francis warned on Thursday against an excessive rigidity, saying those within the Church who tell us ‘it’s this or nothing’ are heretics and not Catholics. His remarks came during the morning Mass on Thursday celebrated at the Santa Marta residence.”

The specific section of the homily referred to in the opening is as follows:

This (is the) healthy realism of the Catholic Church: the Church never teaches us ‘or this or that.’ That is not Catholic. The Church says to us: ‘this and that.’ ‘Strive for perfectionism: reconcile with your brother. Do not insult him. Love him. And if there is a problem, at the very least settle your differences so that war doesn’t break out.’ This (is) the healthy realism of Catholicism. It is not Catholic (to say) ‘or this or nothing:’ This is not Catholic, this is heretical.

Jesus always knows how to accompany us, he gives us the ideal, he accompanies us towards the ideal, He frees us from the chains of the laws' rigidity and tells us: ‘But do that up to the point that you are capable.’ And he understands us very well. He is our Lord and this is what he teaches us.

Interpreting what Pope Francis is saying in a precise way has always been difficult. However, there has been a consistent theme in his remarks against what he refers to as ‘rigid’ Catholics who hold steadfastly to the ideals proposed by Christ and to absolutes. “Fundamentalism is a sickness that we find in all religions,” said the Pope in November while flying home from Africa. “Among Catholics there are many, not a few, many, who believe to hold the absolute truth,” he added. “They go ahead by harming others with slander and defamation, and they do great harm… And it must be combated.”

In his most recent Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia, Pope Francis criticized the Church for often proposing, “a far too abstract and almost artificial theological ideal of marriage.” He added that conscience can “recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which can be given to God, and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal.”

An accusation of rigidity or heresy by Pope Francis against those who would insist on the ideal of Christ’s teaching such as marriage, would fall heavily on Francis’ own predecessor, Pope St. John Paul II, whom Pope Francis himself declared a saint. In the encyclical Veritatis Splendor, John Paul taught: "It would be a very serious error to conclude... that the Church's teaching is essentially only an 'ideal' which must then be adapted, proportioned, graduated to the so-called concrete possibilities of man, according to a 'balancing of the goods in question'.”

The same condemnation of heresy against “this or nothing” Catholics would seem to target the author of God or Nothing, Cardinal Robert Sarah, who Pope Francis appointed to head the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. In God or Nothing, Cardinal Sarah forcefully rejected the notion of watering down the teaching on the indissolubility of marriage with pastoral leniency. “The idea of putting magisterial teaching in a beautiful display case while separating it from pastoral practice, which then could evolve along with circumstances, fashions, and passions, is a sort of heresy, a dangerous schizophrenic pathology,” he wrote.

Cardinal Sarah also issued a warning to prelates who would seek to alter doctrine by altering the practice of the Church regarding marriage. “Men who devise and elaborate strategies to kill God, to destroy the centuries-old doctrine and teaching of the Church, will themselves be swallowed up, carried off by their own earthly victory into the eternal fires of Gehenna,” he said.

Pope Francis says that Christ “tells us: ‘But do that up to the point that you are capable.’” The Bible however, records our Lord’s words differently in the Gospel of Matthew concluding the 5th chapter where He teaches the hard truths about divorce and adultery. “Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect,” said Jesus.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: adultery; francischurch; heresy; mortalsin
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To: Elsie
"Matthew 18:15-17 King James Version (KJV)

Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother."

With all due respect Elsie, you referenced Matthew 18:15-17, but omitted verses 16 and 17 from your excerpt which I have corrected below.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Whereas Jesus essentially taught that Christians are ultimately to have nothing to do with unrepentant sinners, Jesus’ reflecting on God’s command to “purge the evil from among you” as evidenced by Deuturonomy 17:7, Pope Frances is wrongly teaching Catholics to essentially compromise with such sinners if necessary imo.

In fact, Paul referenced God’s purge command by writing, “expel the wicked man from among you,” regarding the sexual offender of 1 Corinthhians 5 as evidenced by 1 Corinthians 5:13.

We need a pope who studies and applies passages in the Holy Bible.

81 posted on 06/10/2016 11:30:21 AM PDT by Amendment10
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To: daniel1212

I have no idea what that comment means.


82 posted on 06/10/2016 12:37:41 PM PDT by Campion (Halten Sie sich unbedingt an die Lehre!)
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To: cloudmountain; armydoc
BTW, why should Protestants weep? The Church has not changed ONE iota of doctrine/dogma. Homo/bisexuality is STILL a sin. Two people of the same gender CANNOT marry as it would be a grave sin. Fornication is still a sin. Adultery is still a sin. Missing Mass for no good reason is still a sin. Protestants aren't required to EVER go to church, not even on Easter or Christmas. There is no Holy Communion where the priest has the authority to say the words that change bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus. Protestant service: Readings from the Bible and a sermon. That's it. MAYBE some Protestant denominations have a communion of sorts...but, those ministers do NOT have the authority to say the words that change bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul ad Divinity of Jesus. Only Catholic priests have that awesome authority. Protestants have no fasting or abstinence requirements. Lent is nothing but a buildup to wearing the "Easter" bonnet/clothes. Advent is merely a buildup to Christmas. There is no confession, no penances, NOTHING. All they have to do is say "Sorry, Lord" and it's over. They can recommit the same sin 16 times a day and still say "Sorry, Lord, and it's over. EASY-PEASY.

Gee...if I didn't know better I would say you sound a little envious. ;o)

What you claim about "Protestants" belies any understanding of what we believe and it shows a strong misunderstanding of what GRACE is all about.

As for why non-Catholics should care about what any Pope has to say, I'd first ask you if you agree or disagree with many FRoman Catholics who insist ALL Christians must be under submission to the Pope to be saved or if you agree that Christians who used to be Catholics can claim to no longer be Catholic or if they are marked by their baptism and will always be even if they leave?

I often speak up about Catholic issues on OPEN RF threads because of this insistence and I see the hatred and disrespect some Catholics have towards Pope Francis as rank hypocrisy considering men like Martin Luther faced far worse behavior and were excommunicated rather than Rome admitting he was right and reform was sorely needed.

83 posted on 06/10/2016 2:54:09 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: daniel1212
we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.

Well....hmmmm...either one is an "unholy dissenter" who dares resist the authority of the Pope - no matter who he is - or one is a "false" Catholic who asserts a Pope is invalid even when elected according to long established rules. A catch-22???

84 posted on 06/10/2016 3:58:22 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Elsie

As a matter of fact....YES. Hmmm.


85 posted on 06/10/2016 4:25:14 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Elsie
MY my! So judgemental!!! Just WHAT about Doctrine has he taught wrongly?

The crickets are loud tonight......

86 posted on 06/10/2016 4:50:54 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Amendment10
We need a pope who studies and applies passages in the Holy Bible.

Well, that's the understatement of the last 500 or so years.

FWIW, Luther would agree with you, but it didn't work out so well for him, did it?

And you will fare differently how?

87 posted on 06/10/2016 4:54:01 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: cloudmountain
***marriage = a union with ONE woman and ONE man, who are married to each other [which does exclude the Mormons] Speaking of DIVORCE/REMARRIAGE: I recall the teaching of Jesus on Divorce — Matthew 19:3-12, Mark 10:2 ...that is, that REMARRIAGE after divorce is also a GRAVE sin and the remarried commit ADULTERY.

Annulment = church sanctioned divorce, trying to weasel out of labeling the breaking of marriage vows being a sin.

Protestants aren't required to EVER go to church, not even on Easter or Christmas.

Yes, that's right. We aren't REQUIRED to. We go because we WANT to.

Protestant service: Readings from the Bible and a sermon. That's it.

And that's a problem just why? After all Catholics brag on how much Bible reading they have in their mass, now you're criticizing the fact that the Protestant services include Bible reading?

Can you guys ever make up your mind?

.but, those ministers do NOT have the authority to say the words that change bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul ad Divinity of Jesus. Only Catholic priests have that awesome authority.

NOBODY has that authority. not Catholic priests either.

The church just claims they do but their say so does not make it so.

Catholics cannot show ONE single verse that shows anywhere where Jesus gave that authority to anyone.

There is no confession, no penances, NOTHING. All they have to do is say "Sorry, Lord" and it's over. They can recommit the same sin 16 times a day and still say "Sorry, Lord, and it's over. EASY-PEASY.

That's because salvation is by faith, not works. not ritual, not sacraments, not penance.

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin.

Not some and not most. ALL. Forever, past, present, and future.

88 posted on 06/10/2016 5:02:23 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: cloudmountain

Jealousy is rearing it’s head......


89 posted on 06/10/2016 5:02:51 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Campion
I have no idea what that comment means.

Why not, in context? Singular instances [regarding the reproof by Paul and by Catherine], by souls of substance [regarding the weight the reprovers carried], not what we see here [that of peons with opinions in disagreeing with a pope in a variety of statement], and your argument is not with me [seeing as I support reproof of popes in general, while some popes have censored such].

90 posted on 06/10/2016 6:01:53 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: boatbums
Well....hmmmm...either one is an "unholy dissenter" who dares resist the authority of the Pope - no matter who he is - or one is a "false" Catholic who asserts a Pope is invalid even when elected according to long established rules. A catch-22???

Which examples the fact that while evangelicals are attacked for interpreting their supreme authority differently, so do RCs, with some see RC teaching as censuring dissent from the pope such as we see here (which censure is indeed taught), while some saying that this is why such a heretical pope cannot be a valid pope, while others say it is not for them to question such, but to simply follow leadership.

Even then you have the fact that there are different classes of magisterial teaching, which, besides being open to varying degrees of interpretation, require different degrees of assent relative to their certainty.

Faced with such one poster (from a Catholic Answers thread) sighed, Boy. No disrespect intended...and I mean that honestly...but my head spins trying to comprehend the various classifications of Catholic teaching and the respective degrees of certainty attached thereto. I suspect that the average Catholic doesn't trouble himself with such questions, but as to those who do (and us poor Protestants who are trying to get a grip on Catholic teaching) it sounds like an almost impossible task.

The solution for which is cultic, just obey and don't question:

Praxis [practice] is quite simple for faithful Catholics: give your religious assent of intellect and will to Catholic doctrine, whether it is infallible or not. That's what our Dogmatic Constitution on the Church demands, that's what the Code of Canon Laws demand, and that is what the Catechism itself demands. Heb 13:17 teaches us to "obey your leaders and submit to them." This submission is not contingent upon inerrancy or infallibility. - http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=1565864#post1565864

Thus cultic implicit faith is called for, otherwise you have the reality of disparate understandings of RC teaching that we see now, which is contrary to what Rome expresses as reality but which is really only wishful thinking:

CCC 889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."

91 posted on 06/10/2016 6:19:25 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: Amendment10
With all due respect Elsie, you referenced Matthew 18:15-17, but omitted verses 16 and 17 from your excerpt

I sure did!

The -17 was the error on my part.

92 posted on 06/10/2016 7:54:25 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: daniel1212
CCC 889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."

And it was the claim of the Reformation that Rome had strayed away from the "supernatural sense of faith" once delivered unto the saints as recorded in the holy word of God, Sacred Scriptures. I don't believe Christ ever intended us to blindly follow those placed in leadership roles in the church but that ALL must be held to the standards of the faith as handed down and taught by the Apostles of Jesus. Catholicism cannot produce even a single article of faith or verifiable words from the Apostles outside of what was written in Scripture. The claim that "Sacred Tradition" is equal in authority to Sacred Scripture is wrong - it can't be.

93 posted on 06/10/2016 9:05:37 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility.

Share?

99%?
50%??
1%???

94 posted on 06/11/2016 4:30:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide

Who needs a bible, God’s word, or anything else if you can just make up your own rules.

No longer can the punchline be, “Is the pope Catholic?”, because this one ain’t.


95 posted on 06/11/2016 5:00:40 AM PDT by CodeToad (Islam should be banned and treated as a criminal enterprise!)
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To: Elsie
Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. Share? 99%? 50%?? 1%???

Like the latest Target shareholders meeting?

96 posted on 06/11/2016 7:28:39 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: metmom
There is no confession, no penances, NOTHING. All they have to do is say "Sorry, Lord" and it's over. They can recommit the same sin 16 times a day and still say "Sorry, Lord, and it's over. EASY-PEASY.

That's because salvation is by faith, not works. not ritual, not sacraments, not penance. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin. Not some and not most. ALL. Forever, past, present, and future.

And Catholics can recommit the same sin 16 times a day and still say "bless me Father for I have sinned...", then say three Hail Marys, two Our Fathers, and it's over. Easy Peasy!

I have to wonder how anyone can imagine a REAL Christian life without repentance, confession of sin (to God who KNOWS whether we are genuinely sorry), being convicted to "make it right" with the one we may have wronged, and determining with the help of the Holy Spirit to avoid the sin that so easily besets us? Catholics really have no advantage in that area.

97 posted on 06/11/2016 8:44:59 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Catholics have it easy-peasy.

I don’t know of anyone who has ever had the priest tell them to make restoration or reconciliation as their penance instead of the Our Father’s, Hail Mary’s or a couple trips around the rosary.

They should try confessing to God and have Him tell them to go to the person they wronged and make it right.

Then they can try whining about “easy-peasy.”


98 posted on 06/12/2016 6:27:32 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Arthur McGowan
There are Cardinals and bishops (Burke, Sarah, Abp. Scheider) writing books and articles, and giving interviews, to correct the un-Catholic nonsense the Pope has been spewing. Yet you write as though the notion that the Pope is spewing un-Catholic nonsense is patently absurd. And, no, none of the Cardinals is griping about Catholic hospitals, Mother Theresa, feeding the hungry, etc. I certainly CAN speak for people other than myself: people I have conversed with, Protestant FReepers who have specifically said they are troubled by this Pope, etc.

You should really become a Catholic. You care more about what the Pope says and does than I do. Maybe you and your group can effect changes in the Papacy. After all, the Papacy has been around for a mere 2,000 years, so you can OBVIOUSLY make changes in this "troubling" Papacy.
Lots of luck.

I focus my life on Jesus and leave the politics of the Papacy to the Vatican.

99 posted on 06/12/2016 9:05:58 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: daniel1212
I SUBMIT to Jesus.

The Pope doesn't ask or tell us Catholics what to do, how to pray or what to believe in. If you actually knew anything about Catholicism, you would know that the Pope is just the vicar on earth for Jesus...just the vicar, as have been the previous popes for the last 2,000 years, beginning with St. Peter.

100 posted on 06/12/2016 9:08:49 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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