Posted on 05/24/2016 6:49:46 AM PDT by Salvation
Many of you know that I write the Question and Answer column for Our Sunday Visitor. Given the celebration of Trinity Sunday this past Sunday, I thought I might reproduce here on the blog a question/answer regarding the Trinity. It is a fairly common question; perhaps you have it, too. Remember that my answers in the column are required to be brief.
We read in a recent Sunday Gospel (May 1, 2016) that Jesus says that the Father is greater than He (Jn 14:28). Since we are all taught that each Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity fully possesses the nature of God, equally to be adored and glorified, what did Jesus mean by such a statement?” – Dick Smith, Carrolton, TX.
Theologically, Jesus means that the Father is the eternal source in the Trinity. All three persons of the Trinity are co-eternal, co-equal, and equally divine. But the Father is the Principium Deitatis (the Source in the Deity).
Hence, Jesus proceeds from the Father from all eternity. He is eternally begotten of the Father. In effect, Jesus is saying, “I delight that the Father is the eternal principle or source of my being, even though I have no origin in time.”
Devotionally, Jesus is saying that He always does what pleases His Father. Jesus loves His Father; He’s crazy about Him. He is always talking about Him and pointing to Him. By calling the Father greater, He says (in effect), “I look to my Father for everything. I do what I see Him doing (Jn 5:19) and what I know pleases Him (Jn 5:30). His will and mine are one. What I will to do proceeds from Him. I do what I know accords with His will.”
So although the members of the Trinity are all equal in dignity, there are processions in the Trinity, such that the Father is the source, the Son eternally proceeds from Him (Jn 8:42), and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principal (Jn 15:26).
St Thomas speaks poetically of the Trinity as follows:
Genitori, Genitoque … Procedenti ab utroque … compar sit laudautio
(To the One Who Begets, and to the Begotton One, and to the One who proceeds from them both, be equal praise.)
The Athanasian Creed says the following regarding these processions:
The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, neither made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, not made, nor created, nor begotten, but he proceeds from them.
So although equal, processions do have an order. The Father is “greater” (as source), but is equal in dignity to Son and Holy Spirit.
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So true.......
The careless use of Mother of God and lack of any clarifying, qualifying statement against the normal denotation of the term "mother," which normally speaks of ontological oneness, testifies to the eagerness to make the Mary of Catholicism into a deified goddess, which the many appellations given to her do.
Note the careful qualifier Holy Spirit provides in Rm. 9:5, reducing Israel, which Mary was part of, as a mere instrument of the Lord's flesh while exalting Christ as God:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 9:4-5)
Ignoring the other scriptural references to Jesus’ earthly half family, there is a vast difference from respecting Mary versus worshiping her. I don’t remember any of the apostles asking her to pray to God for them.
When I was a Catholic, I worshipped Mary. Now that I am an ex Catholic, I don't. I respect her for sure, but that's all.
I don't recall any of the Apostles asking her to pray for them, unless they asked for her prayers, the same way they would ask any of the Christians to pray for them. I am sure they were not into necromancy, so once they died, no one asked them to pray for them anymore.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.
. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
That's what I said, they worshiped Jesus as God, because He was God.....that's why I am a member of the church that He founded.....not some man made "denomination".
If I said I respected you as a woman, wouldn't that indicate that I believed that you are a woman?.....sheesh
I was making a point to the doubters.....if Mary had been buried, everyone would know where she was....they didn't because she was ASSUMED into Heaven, not ascended.
Of course I was talking about His immediate followers....and, by the way, since we have no real date of her death, it could have been within months of His crucifixion....who knows???
Nope, your scapular was free, your missal,on thee other hand, could have been a gift or you could have purchased it from a book store,,,missals, Bibles, etc. are usually not free.
begotten by the Holy Spirit, BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY(His mother)
It's been decades since I had my scapular, so I don't remember if it cost anything. They told me it had magical powers, so if I died while wearing it, I would get a free pass to Heaven.
Some people might believe that. I certainly don't. The priests and nuns told us it was ok to have a Bible, but to make sure we let a priest interpret it for us. I was such a terrible Catholic, I enjoyed committing mortal sins. I was a very rebellious Catholic. I usually did the opposite of what I was told, so when they told me not to read it and interpret for myself, what do you suppose was the first thing I did? I read the Bible, and interpreted it for myself. I never paid attention in Catechism class much. I was more interested in looking at the girls, and thinking about going out to play hockey.
Then those great and wonderful Navigators came along and told me I was perfectly justified in being my own pope.
The next thing I knew, I left the OTC, and I am happy as heck about that. I do not plan to bluff my way into Heaven, like some others are. I wouldn't name any names, however, but those who are trying to bluff their way into Heaven, KMOW who they are. 😇
No, we don't know the date of her death. If she was sinless, she never would have died. Instead, like all of us will, she died, and was buried somewhere, and her body, like all of ours will, decayed into nothing but a skeleton.
I would say the chances are, all her kids, who were born to Mary and Joseph after the birth of Jesus, probably took care of her burial. I don't know for sure, because the Bible doesn't say, and I NEVER go beyond what is written. No one should, so if you do, then you should stop.
Christ was, He did.
Christ was, He did.
TC, this is a very rare moment. I actually agree with you bro. This has never happened before. It may never happen again, so enjoy it while you can.
You are correct, that Jesus is sinless, and certainly died for us.
I am glad you agree that Mary died, and her body lies a mouldering in the grave. What I mean is, anyone who is sinless, will never die physically. The fact that Mary died, proves she was a sinner, like all of us. She has no magical powers, to answer prayers, or influence God, or anything. She is a citizen of Heaven, that's all.
She was also the mother of at least 6 other children, that came after Jesus. One of them, James, the half brother of Jesus, was actually the leader of the Jerusalem church, not Peter.
I hope you are trying to figure out, how the death and resurrection of Jesus relates to YOU personally, not others, only you. And by the way, it is perfectly ok to commit the sin of presumption, and know totally, completely, positively 100%, that you will go to Heaven. There is no need to try to bluff your way into Heaven.
Oh?
Izzatso?
Christ was BURIED and that location is STILL not known for sure!
I only assume that Mary died, she was, however, assumed into heaven....before or after physical death or at the exact time of physical death no one knows nor is it important.
Jesus relates to me personally through Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist and the rest of the Catholic religion....it was, after all, the religion that Christ instituted....not the Navigators...they are a man made sect who somehow feel the authority to override 1,930 years of Christian teaching and do it their way. O.K., I guess, but if I'm playing the odds, I think I'll stick with the learned men who brought Christianity through CENTURIES of trials and doubt.
I have no idea of what Jesus cousin James had to do with the early church, but Peter was, indeed, the titular head of the newly established Catholic church....if he appointed James to head a branch, so be it, and NO, Mary did not have 6 children....if you think that she did, name them and show ANY iota of evidence that they existed.
You agree with me more than you will admit because you are trying your best to justify an EXTREMELY poor decision.
I disagree with all that bro, except to say, it is not important.
Jesus relates to me personally through Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist and the rest of the Catholic religion....it was, after all, the religion that Christ instituted....not the Navigators...they are a man made sect who somehow feel the authority to override 1,930 years of Christian teaching and do it their way. O.K., I guess, but if I'm playing the odds, I think I'll stick with the learned men who brought Christianity through CENTURIES of trials and doubt
I disagree with every word of that bro.
I have no idea of what Jesus cousin James had to do with the early church, but Peter was, indeed, the titular head of the newly established Catholic church....if he appointed James to head a branch, so be it, and NO, Mary did not have 6 children....if you think that she did, name them and show ANY iota of evidence that they existed.
I disagree with all of that bro. I can't remember the last time you ever gave any evidence to back up anything you have ever said. You may have, or you may not have. I just can't recall if you ever do, so I don't feel like I have ANY obligation to give you ANY evidence of Mary's 6 (or more) kids she had, you know, after she and Joseph did the evil S word (sex) But since you asked about the half brothers and half sisters of Jesus, the result of the evil deed, try Matthew 23: 55,56. Mark 6:3. John 2:12. John 7:3-10. Acts 1:14. 1st Cor 9:5. Gal 1:19. That's more than enough information for you, but if you don't want to accept that, well, that's on you bro.
All of those things are not all that important. The only thing that matters, is what your plan of salvation is. Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me, that your plan of salvation is baptism, good works, membership in the so called OTC, plus Sacrements, and a few other things. If that is true, well, my opinion is, you could possibly end up with the short end of the stick.
You are welcome to your opinion bro. I just don't agree with it.
Jesus may indeed have had half brothers and sisters....Joseph, His step father might have had a huge family. We don't really know nor care. Mary gave birth to one child, Jesus, and His birth was well documented.If, for some bizarre reason, you like to believe that she had six kids, feel free to do so, you seem content to change whatever you want in Christian history.
Protestants are called that for a reason...they protest reality, but to no avail, it remains reality. The truth never changes just because you can't accept it. Think about it....a religion which started with its founder and 11 apostles has grown and thrived for 2,016 years and has more than a billion followers and the navigators...80 years old, started by a man, challenges the 2,016 year old cradle of Christianity with hundreds if not thousands of learned Christian scholars....and you suggest that I am bluffing my way into Heaven????????????your logic escapes me.
I disagree bro. Once again, you provide no Biblical evidence for your claim, but then again, have you ever? Not as far as I know.
Mary had at least 7 children, Jesus, then at least 6 others, but maybe more. Mary and Joseph had sex after Jesus was born. I will even go out on a limb, and say they probably enjoyed their married sexual relationship. They were entitled to.
Think about it....a religion which started with its founder and 11 apostles has grown and thrived for 2,016 years and has more than a billion followers
You might be assuming I accept that at face value. I don't. I don't care how many followers there are. There are a billion Muzzies out there too, and I don't believe their religion either. Pope Francis might, but I don't.
It's a wonderful thing to be my own pope. You should try it. You will like it.
Now, I am going to go commit the sin of presumption, by enjoying my assurance of salvation. I do not plan to try to bluff my way into Heaven. Others might try, but that's on them.
The only ones changing Christian history is the Catholic church which makes up stuff contrary to the revealed word of God, which, very ironically, Catholics claim it wrote.
That same Scripture is very clear that Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage after the birth of Jesus.
Mary of the Bible certainly did have other children...
Psalm69:8 I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons.
Matthew 1:24-25 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
Matthew 12:46-47 While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
Mark 6:2-3 And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?”... “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
Acts 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
1 Corinthians 9:4-5 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
Galatians 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
Strong's Concordance
http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm
adelphos: a brother
Original Word: ἀδελφός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: adelphos
Phonetic Spelling: (ad-el-fos')
Short Definition: a brother
Definition: a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian.
Here is a link to the occurrences of the Greek word *adelphos*.
http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm
The word *sister* (adelphe) in the Greek is the same.
http://biblehub.com/greek/79.htm
The word used is *brother* not *cousin*.
It can't mean a member of the same religious community in the context in which they occur, because then that would mean every man in Israel could be identified as Jesus' brother. So that would not identify Jesus as anyone in particular's brother.
It's not going to mean *brother in Christ* as that concept was not yet in place and the Jews, who knew Jesus as a Jew and knew His brothers as Jews, would not even begin to understand the new birth and what being in Christ meant.
They didn't even understand who JESUS was, much less being a *brother in Christ*.
The only definition left then, is to mean physical brother.
And it would not be *cousin*.
The word for *relative* that is used for Elizabeth is *suggenes*, not *adelphe*.
http://biblehub.com/greek/4773.htm
Strong's Concordance
suggenes: akin, a relative
Original Word: συγγενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: suggenes
Phonetic Spelling: (soong-ghen-ace')
Short Definition: akin, a relative
Definition: akin to, related; subst: fellow countryman, kinsman.
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